Where does the croup start - Page 2

There is a breakdown of complete body structutre here on the database:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/info/15.html

F.C.I. Standard

"The croup should be long and have a slight downward slope (approximately 23 degrees from horizontal) and should merge smoothly into the tail set."

37 degree is a far cry from 23 degree!!!

Correct Angles

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/structure_information/1.html

Thanks everyone!

Louise, that last picture was great, thanks a bunch.

~Cate

In viewing the canine pelvis from a lateral aspect, the croup may be defined as the "region" extending from the cranial crest of the ileum (pin bone) to the most caudal portion of the ischial tuberosity (sit bone) or ramus.

A correct pelvis is of the same length and should be set at the same angle as the scapula--assuming the dog is standing 4-square (naturally)--without being drawn into a "stack".  BTW, in the illustration below, the dog is not standing 4-square.

The "region" of the croup incorporates the fused sacral vertebrae and the coccygeal vertebrae overlying and extending the length of the pelvis.
 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/structure_information/2.html

Principle bones: 01. Paretial bone 02. Occipital protuberance 03. Frontal bone 04. Temporal bone 05. Zygomatic process 06. Cheekbone 07. Upper jawbone 08. Lower jawbone 09. Vertebrae 10. Shoulder blade 11. Humerus 12. Sternum 13. Radium 14. Ulna 15. Carpus 16. Metacarpus 17. Phalanges 18. Vertebra coccygea 19. Iliac bone (ileum) 20. Femur 21. Patella 22. Tibia 23. Fibula (calf bone) 24. Calcaneum 25. Tarsus 26. Metatarsus 27. Phalanges

Louise ... do you think the Lumbar vertebra will raise to somewhat  a slight arch if the HOCK is directly below the pelvis on a naturally posed GSD..??? And about the withers are they supposed to be, the Thoracic vertebra that have Spinal processes or just plain MUSCLE.???  Lets say a long Lumbar (back) vertebra compensates by having roach, ( I think that's what happend to the Rolf Osnabruck line ) Or a well laid Shoulder that pushes the rear further down... High Long Wither + Short Back + Long sloping Croup... (Long+Short+Long).... What do you consider a ROUNDED BACK...??? common in West High lines.???

Proudpoppa, the excerpt you listed from the "The Illustrated Standard Of The German Shepherd"

THE CROUP
 

couldn't be more wrong in regard to GSDs.  Any experienced GSD breeder or enthusiast knows that length of croup determines the volume of muscling attached to the croup from the legs and determines the overall power of the rear drive of the GSD when gaiting.  Whoever wrote this doesn't know what they are talking about with GSD.  Ask and SV breed Warden and you will get set straight very quickly.  It's a wwell known fact amoung these folks.  What LLouis has posted above is 100% accurate for ideal croup confirmation:  long and noty too steep, nor too flat.  Tail ste may or may not be associated with croup length.  I have known of some W. German high drive GSDs with a proper sloped and long croup to display a somewhat high tail set when on lead, being exhibited or doing buitework.  Thisis do to their arousal level during those times. The same dog will not display this at other times.

Ok, so I have a question related to the croup.  The standard as written on the UScA site states, "The croup should be long and have a slight downward slope (approximately 23 degrees from horizontal.)"

However, UScA national conformation judge Ricardo Carbajal's 'Structure' video states, the croup should be angled "23 degrees from the plane of the back".  The video then depicts a dog with a line drawn along the slope of the back with a second line depicting croup angle. 

Fred Lanting states the following in a review of the Carbajal video, "There is a good definition and illustration of the croup, though it is important to realize that when the Germans (and Canine Training Systems) speak of a 23-degree angle, they mean from the plane of the back." ( http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/reviews.php )

The current standard (Grewe's translation) and the 'correct angles' illustration above seem to imply 23 degrees from true horizontal is the correct croup angle.  However, Carbajal's video (and Lanting's statement) seem to depict otherwise.

Can anyone reconcile these differences for me?

Resolve these differences.  Yep I can.  First of all Ricardo Carbajal's instructional videos are absolutely the best.  The 23 degree angle is from the plane (or average plane) of the back, not the horizontal or parallel to the ground.  The first picture shows the dog sting himself up in a show stance (actually correct when on lead and excited). Here the angle is being measured from the horizontal.  The second photo shows the angle being measured from the plane of the dog's back.

If a GSD has a very long lower leg (typical of the American blooded shepherds--ie at least 7 generations breeding from w. German stock), this acts as a long lever and the GSD tends to steepen its own croup up as a compensation.  This of course reduces the efficiency of the animal and tends to produce a wind-up spring like action which produces a long range of motion in the rear, but one that can not be long sustained--thus really producing a degeneracy in the rear construction genetically.

So then how the croup operates in cooperation with the lower leg is an important factor in adding or reducing the power of the drive, given all other things equal.

Louise, thanks for your posts. They were great & saved my tailspin from becoming terminal! It did take a bit of time googling to really understand all the terms you used but, hurrah I think i've got it.

Interesting point you mentioned about the lay & length of the pelvis being equal to that of the shoulder blade. That's the first time I've heard heard this & I'm assuming this will only contibute to the balance between fore & aft that is always desired.

Thanks again,

AandA