sport puppy and litter evaluation - Page 2

Senta We must have been posting at the same time. To address your last post, you are missing the point. The OP wants to know what to look for in a "sport puppy and litter evaluation". I don't think breeders normally keep litters around for 16+ WEEKS. I think you, like many believe that for a good sport dog, you need to get a more mature puppy. One that the future is in sight. Perhaps a dog in it's late pup stages. I agree that it is easier to read a 1 yr old than a 7 week old, but that was not the OP's thread. I also agree that one should see the parents work. It may be very hard to see grandparents, but if you can great! I think you are missing the original question.

... I can only congratulate to the absolute view, you have with this young puppies! Congratulation. Perhaps it would be good for AIR, if you would help there.

Senta Claus I don't know why you have to take that tone. I thought we were being civilized. And yes, if AIR lives in my area, I would gladly pick out a pup with Him/Her. Yes, puppies are a crap shoot, but I don't see why you can't answer the original question. If someone asked for a solid black puppy, I don't tell them to go looking for sable because they are easier to find. I appreciate your knowledge and information. I think it is very valid in the sport world. Sometimes it is easier to go out and find an older dog. One that displays most of it's characteristics. Older dogs are great for many people out there. Maybe you don't have the time for a pup and an older dog that requires minimum training and maintanence is a good fit.

No, I would not really like to argue. And my congratulation was ok. I can only admire such a possibility to judging - I would not think such a judgement to me capable of - let alone such a judgement over a 7-weeks old puppy to fall. I cannot reconstruct, HOW it is to SEEING or is to TESTS, how a puppy will be. And I repeat myself reluctantly and perhaps only to the general understanding: in a litter there are puppies certain rankings, which are coined/shaped at this time - 7 weeks old -. With the fact it can occur that a quite characterful puppy in last place stands - and exactly the same he behaves -, it can itself only so and not differently holds back. The biting work is only partially into the cradle put. A puppy, which was early spoiled, will perhaps never bite more. There are too many options, which play a role. Therefore I still doubt the view into the future of a puppy - which is old estimated 7-weeks old. This puppy can show up and present super and have "a good grasp" - nevertheless it can fail later under wrong influence. A warranty for it does not give it. The example black-yellow or grey is not a good comparison. If I would looking for a dog for sport - that was the question? - If I would select so a puppy, I would act as follows: 1. parents control, particularly the nut/mother, that usually spends most time with the puppies 2. the conditions, how the puppies grow up 3. the pedigree control after successes/failures/hd 4. look to the breeder, what he will tell me.... 5. than the puppy select, which is play joyful at most in the group, which a good social behavior shows, which is temperful ( not nervously! ), which does not show a fear, which is open and friendly. That would be the puppy, with which I could work best. And I promise - he would do his bitework what he has to do - without any problems! BUT: all humans are different... and need therefore different dogs.

Senta You wrote, "This puppy can show up and present super and have 'agood grasp'- nevertheless it can fail later under the wrong influence." You have just proven my point. A pup that shows up "super" can be ruined by a crappy trainer. The pup will not lose it's grip and drive on its own. Only you can ruin that, thus you are saying that these qualities can be seen at young ages. I feel for the people that cant read dogs. It is like being a blind painter. How can you train a dog if you cannot read the damn thing. No wonder why there are so many shitters out there. And yes, I understand that not all humans are the same. Some can read a dog and some cannot. Some can train a dog and some cannot.

I have it me cure to estimate a dog if this dog is in strange hand. I can estimate my own dogs, but I will not judge any longer strange dog. Beside: There was here with acquaintance a gsd-male, which I know since the puppy age. It was a good dog, a correct male - however in wrong hand. As he became juvenile up to its 3. year... became the dog badly. When he was still young, he was my friend. By the wrong education ( he did live only at the chain, not a discharge, no work, simply nothing...) he became aggressive - opposite children, postman, other animals, the owners of him. Once he sat next door - I wanted to welcome him, he knows me - however he reacted like petrified, fixed me... I turned and went. I judge no more dogs, which do not belong to me and whose owners I do not know. A wrong judgement or a mistake can be very painful. I think we can only guess what dog or puppy it could be - never really be sure. Back to the question: it is hard to decide what puppy it could be.

I am disappointed not many people replied to this. Surely you breeders out there evaluate your litters somehow. No one cares to share?

I have been breeding dogs for service/ sport work for years . First and upmost the litter should stem from very good parents with very good to excellent dogs in their pedigree that are proven to produce working charcter pups choosen for working such as schutzhund are evaluated by drive quality play, prey, possesion, grip quality self confidence . Now one can see grip quality as early as 5 weeks this is not grip by tugging or aggitating the 5 week old it's the way they grip a toy to posses it from their litter mates or a toy thrown onto the floor. Due to 5 week old not having the jaw strenght by average to hold on to a toy when raised all four paws of the ground I do not do this. age 6-7 weeks now a breeder can see how possesive a pup is and check if it keeps it's grip by lifting the young pup off the ground ( front feet only ) Does the pup stay calm or does it start to whine while it is being raised or does it completly let go as soon as the lift is being applied. These are all factors in selection of the best pups for those who choose to obtain a pup for working purposes. Same goes for dogs to be evaluated as SAR dogs floor sensetivities can be noticed as early as 5 weeks by age 6-7 weeks I wet the tile floor let the pups bound into the kitchen a good floor secure pup will slip scramble to get his feet under and continue a pup with floor sensetivities can range from a very nervous reaction to a total freeze Due to the pups getting plenty of time in and around the house I evaluate which pups are more resilient towards breeder influence such as and the always do get into stuff around the house . Some pups being pulled away or pushed away with a stern no will comply easy others well they won't take No for an answer :) and keep wanting to go back to what they seeking :) By age 10 weeks I have had pups completly off the ground and applying a drive including motion from my fist downwards towards their face make believe I would hit them a good one takes it with open eyes and love it :) This is genetic influence ! A breeder can not put in self confidence drive etc if the genetics aren't working for us yeah sure we can work with a pup with lesser drive qualities to make it better but such babes make the better companion dogs . A breeder can only give you the pup with the qualities of a very promising working prospect what you the trainer do with it is very influencial in the result of the quality of the performance . I have had pups that would have been to much for a beginner in the sport in my last litter I had such a male it was very noticeable to me at age 5 6 7 8 weeks this one is not a every persons dog :) Lucky for me he was purchased by a former K9 handler and old time Schutzhunder and this is not a brag just fact he has his hands full LOL No matter what purpose a pup is for they must show the willingness to greet strangers be playfull what sets a comapnion animal and working animal apart is drive quality possiveness grip and resilience Pia

I've tested many litters over the years, and have competed as well. I have a Ph.D., did all the reading, and had a few good teachers in this area. That said, I don't think puppy testing at seven weeks can tell you a lot, although I do think they can tell you something. The reason a lot of people THINK such tests are predictive is that (1) seven weeks is the last time they see a lot of pups and (2) it is easy to imagine the pups turned out the way they predicted, without actually knowing this to be true. I actually had a little pro bono service called S-O-R once. (It's an anti-Skinnerian thing.) As a college professor, I tried to do honest follow-up research on all my tested litters. It was very hard. Not that people didn't want to be helpful, but most people never come close to training enough to give you a scientific basis for comparison. So most people are really guessing when they say their tests were predictive of adult behavior. Even guiding eyes for the blind, who did this work extensively (and I both watched and participated) knew the puppy tests were so limited that they had to be repeated OFTEN during the first 14 months. Some of the best actual research can be found in Malcolm Willis. There, regrettably, the stark facts are revealed: heritability of behavioral traits (such as bite) are much lower than breeders need to believe. (Only 5-20% of the behavior you see in a dog is directly inherited. The rest is environmental, random, or a mix of factors.) This doesn't mean that what happens among a great breeder, a great dam, and the pups in the nest doesn't matter, and does not add to genetics in puppy behavior. So what you see at 7 weeks in a puppy test is about 10% genetics + breeder/dam rearing factor that is unknown + large random factors. What you see in the adult dog are those three factors plus a few more (including you). Let me say what I think tests are good for: they cannot rule in a great dog, period. (The reasons are complex and have to do with biology and statitistics, but regression to the mean is the best way to describe them. Even great puppies can fade in extreme traits.) BUT THEY CAN RULE OUT PUPPIES. That is, a puppy who is unwilling to bite, retrieve, or is fearful at 7 weeks should not be chosen for sport. He will not get stronger later. All you can hope to do is find a pup who is now strong (emotionally and physically) and hope he stays that way. If you use a test such as Volhard's, take a pup with lots of 2's and more 1's than 3's -- and do your best to raise him well -- but you cannot count on the test capturing much. Make sure you have a good breeding and a smart, OBSERVANT AND CARING breeder -- someone who can answer VERY DETAILED AND SPECIFIC questions about individual pups. And make sure her view of the pup matches the test you did! Bottom line: you can only hope to see about "30%" of an adult dog at 7 weeks and you can only hope to half-understand what you see, so only about 1/6 of the adult dog will show up in your testing and breeder comments. The rest is, unfortunately perhaps, mystery you will just have to live with. We all do.

A knowledgeable breeder such as Pia (above), Shelley Strohl (Frauengarten), or Molly (Eichenluft) can make a huge difference. After many years of trying to make tests work, I have personally decided to trust great breeders (great dogs, yes, but great uprearing by someone who knows and cares enough to give it time is critical) and worry about specific tests less. I have a pup now (Frauengarten) who was actually not a great retriever or tugger at 8 weeks during his test, but can now pull me (a 230 pound ex collegiate athlete) off my feet, retrieves fast with drive, and would break my fingers if I tried to pull a sleeve out of mouth. He didn't do extremely well on my test, I took him anyway, and he is very good. I trusted the breeder, who thought she saw what I asked for in him, and he really is what she said he would be. I have often reflected on the Volhard test scores of my old Bodo v Grafental (DDR seiger) son. He only earned 3', including in the retrieve, yet he could have retrieved a car at his prime. He was more interested in naps than noses as a pup, yet would track or retrieve until he dropped later in life.