Equivalent working titles? - Page 2

" The fact that a dog is a working police dog does not equate to "title equivalent" to me.   Not all of them are of the "typical" caliber of the RCMP's dogs.  I have seen up close and personal TOO MANY working police dogs with questionable temperaments and/or nerve problems.  In fact, at one point in time, schutzhund people  seemed to have "dumped" their questionable dogs off on police departments.  Many of the police departments have staff unable to discern the difference between a strong, tough dog and a nervy dog with a  temperament problem."

LOL I have to laugh because we all know there are many many SchH dogs out there with questionable temperament too. As far as SchH people dumping their shitters, what does that say about them and their credability? All for the allmighty dollar. Gotta make their $$$ back even at the possible cost of an LEO's life. Gag!

Any and every title is meaningless to me unless like I said, I have seen it with my own two eyes.  Also why I wont rule out any venue, a good dog is a good dog, is a good dog.

4pack. Not  all shitters kiddo. Some may track too fast. Some have zipper grips. Some may have unfocused heeling. Still great cop dogs. Too many stories of good dogs in that field from the sport to have you make your own sport of it. You trash the people that breed very good dogs and place them with the depts. because the dogs usually have superior homes. They will not place these good dogs with just any body. Still laughing?

The irony is interesting.  Of the people I've crossed paths with in life.... the sport enthusiasts look down on the police dogs as "SchH washouts", and the LEO K9 handlers look down on the SchH dogs as "K9 washouts".

Gotta luv it.

One point I'll add... my hubby and I have a Mali bitch that we'd like to get trained as a bomb dog.  We found a LEO in our state who has trained many K9's, and he did an evaluation of her.  His conclusion was that, yes, she had potential to be trained as a bomb dog, but the SchH foundation work that I had put on her was not exactly the right foundation for a real working dog.

Example:  in SchH, all exercises are a choreographed routine with the handler not more than 10m away.  Much emphasis is put on the dog's "prance and dance" precision work.  No working police K9 will prance next to the handler with the neck craned back to look in the face. 

Anywho, we had to revamp our foundation training regimen for our girl, to develop her for "real work" as an explosives detection K9.  The exercises that we practice are quite different from what I would do for a SchH prospect.

In-ter-ress-ting.  Pleeease continue with the discussion....

I agree with 4pack. It is the dog that makes or breaks the deal.

Are you all saying then that all Police Dogs are crap? Are all SAR Dogs crap? Are all Service dogs crap? No

Are all Schutzhund dogs worthy of breeding? No. Actually, I would bet most of those "sport" dogs could never do Police, SAR, or Service work either. It all depends on the training, the handler and the dog. Without the trio, none of the dogs would be able to do anything. Just because a dog is a Schutzhund Sport Dog doesn't mean it is of sound temperament anymore than a Police Dog on the street fighting for its life at times being drowned by a criminal or having its ears torn, etc. What does you dog do to prove is "courage" bark at a man who stands in a blind (ALWAYS behind a blind) or the stick hit, woo ouch!, or that same guy who runs away EVERY time. If you were taught the same game with the same rules each training date, I would hope you could figure it out eventually. A Police Dog doesn't get to know where the bad guy is know there will be a straight line track with a peice of leather, a couple turns, a woo hoo, I found the article at the end! Same obedience routine every time. A Police Dog is in a huge adrelaline rush usually in the dark while chasing, tracking, biting or holding, and let me tell you, it is MUCH higher than on a playing field. A Sport dog unless doing Mondo or Ring always bites the same arm which will feel the same with padding. A Police Dog doesn't get that benefit either.

As for the person who said they know breeders who dump their shit on the Police. I hope it stays on YOUR conscience when that Dog is shot, stabbed, a person is injured/killed, or a child crys because their mom/dad who was a k9 handler didn't make it home because that dog had a hidden flaw and the seller/importer knew it. SHAME on you. Besides all the tax money you are spending when that dog gets half way through the 400 hour class and it gets dropped making the handler dropped from possibly his/her dream and possibly having his/her children lose a loved companion when a new dog has to be brought into the picture.

 I guess I just HATE it when people bash Police or SAR Dogs and think their "sport" dogs are perfect. Do I think all Police Dogs are perfect, hell no, just don't bash them and say "my dog plays a sport and is better than a real work dog".

I also think people don't realize that a Service and SAR Dog needs high drive, high stamina, perfect nerves, and must keep it in check at all times as they are out in public, not on a playing field. Malls crowded with running kids, loud people, other dogs, moving cars, escalaters, slick floors, dark places, running long distances, etc, all different than a kennel to field back to kennel. These dogs even live indoors! Something most Schutzhund dogs can't even handle from what I am told by many of you.

I have on my fire suit so fire away!  I hope if your child is missing in the dead of winter, they bring in a Schutzhund Dog to save the little one's life or if you are wheelchair bound, they give you a sport dog.

I am also a firm believer that if Max were here today, there would be MANY changes to the "big picture" both added and deleted. If Agility or SAR, Service Dog, etc were existant or popular in his days, they may be a much larger part of the requirements or at least there would be more options.

Happy Holidays!

K-9mom,  an eloquent post 

Trafalgar. My take is 98 74 98 for a breeding/working dog. This is really something to talk about. Title well at both ends.

All I want to know is WHY??? do some people want to put the GSD, which happens to be IMO one of the greatest dogs ever to be bred in a BOX?

The glory of these dogs IS their versatility!  and how they can adapt and fit into many different venues.  The variances of temperments should be just that - put the dog to work or sport or show where it most naturally fits with its temperment, drives, and what it brings to the table from its genes. 

Doesn't this solve the big argument?  

I believe all venues have merit.  If you want to buy a protection dog - buy one.  A sport dog - buy one.  A show dog - buy one.  They are all individuals because of the lines of their breeding.  And so are the owners.....we all have different goals and none should claim supremecy - they all have a place.  I am all for separating the breed survey from the sport - temperment can be tested without bitework IMO.

Should people all homoginize ???

An AKC CDX degree, with 3 consecutive successful legs scoring 195 or higher would mean more to me than a barely passing Schutzhund degree.

yikes!  ANY breed can get a CDX in obedience...  it's no way to prove a good GSD

and where's the tracking, the protection? 

Clews. Go buy a clue.