Solid black out of two sables? - Page 2

IMO, all the Sontausen dogs are bi-colors. Of the others, Inflight's Spencer v Sandyhill, Caraland's Unlimited, and Jory of Edgetowne area bi-colors--with the latter bein a question mark. I believe that Molly Graf describes bi's as having no facial markings. 

Back in the 1960's we had some winning GSD's with hidious facial markings (IMO)--malemute/dobe/rott. We refered to them as "reverse masks".

IMO bicolor dogs are very distinct - the "true bicolor" dog has little or no facial markings - or limited to a very clear cheek, throat and two eyebrows, no shadings of tan around the ears at all, no shadings beyond the cheek/throat area.  Chest marking again - no shading around it, no shading on the shoulders or thighs, no tan on the belly except between the back legs.  Also never "silvering" on the neck or back.  There is a distinct "tan vent" under the tail, again with no shading around it.  Also "true" bicolors always have black toe marks and tarheels.  Some more "muddied" than others.  Some chest, cheek and throat markings are clear, some "muddied".   From the pictures shared above -

Erich, Cito, Arko, Alert, Yasko, Tacoma are all blanket-back black/tans.  Not bicolor.  Jory I can't tell for sure, can't see toemarks, might be the picture but he could be bicolor, if he has toemarks (I see he has some tarheel).  Gino, Spencer, Unlimited, Ira and Nadya are "true bicolors" IMO.

Here are three more examples -

Kobra (bicolor with "muddied" facial and chest markings)

Queen - bicolor with clearer unmuddied markings - she does have some markings behind ears but no shadings on shoulder/thigh, also pencil marks/tar heels tell she is genetically a bicolor, though not as "melanistic" as Kobra.

Mohave - not bicolor, though she is very dark black/tan she does not have toemarks or tarheels, does have some shadings behind ears and on belly, around cheek marks - she will probably develop more shadings on shoulders/thighs with age - not genetically a bicolor.

TIG, those are very good points, and I'm one to agree that the alleles that determine bi-color are in fact not located specifically on the same allele as the other color patterns, but are modifiers.  I think for the most part, the chart will still however effectively determine probable outcomes for the litter.

If we supposed that the bicolor gene were a modifier, but not expressed in phenotype when the agouti allele carries either the sable (aw) or the black&tan (as), then that would fit the model well.  I would propose that when the "at" allele is expressed homogenously, and the agouti loci carries the black gene, then the result is a bi-color dog.  From three previous breedings, I bred a black sable sire (aw+a) to a homogenous black&tan female.  There were some light colored sables, and some blanket backed black&tans.  None of the black&tans in the litters had a distinct saddle as the mother did, as in this example.

But then, a very few in the litters would nearly appear bicolor, but would not fall into the definition of bicolor that most agree on, I think because the black&tan over rides the phenotype expression.

A very melanistic black&tan, from what I think would be homogenous alleles for bicoloration.  If the breeding female had a recessive black gene instead of homogenous for black&tan, I wonder if there could have been true bicolors in the litters (a+a, with at+at modifiers at a different loci overiding the solid black coat).

These puppies are from black & red parents, the one & only black in the middle 
was the last pup to be born,that was a fun litter!!
Dana Von Ryans, is sister to black pup!

I had always thought that 2 sables bred together could only produce sable,
does anyone have a personal experience with owning & breeding 2 sables
that produced a black?
Would love to see pedigree!

Yes, and as I mentioned it's not unusual for two sables to produce black puppies - if both parents carry black then black puppies from two sables (or two parents of any color) will happen.  Here is my black dog with both of his parents - both sables.  You can look them up for pedigrees - sire V-Eagle v Eichenluft Schh3, dam Cora v Granit Rose Schh1.

I have a 4 day old litter right now. Out of 5 puppies, 3 are sable and 2 are black and red. Both parents are sable. Ronaldo, the sire is a red sable and Vila, the mother has more tan which is typical for her sire's line (VA-Timo vom Berrekasten). But she has always produced excellent pigment. Her daughter V-Gina vom Silbersee also has beautiful red pigment (out of VA-Erasmus). I never expect to see black puppies out of any of my sable dogs, because they are showline sables. The showline sables do not have the black gene, unfortunately. All of these dogs are on my homepage under males and/or females respectively: www.vomsilbersee.com

Chris

Molly, we posted at the same time. I love the dark sables and wish they were present in showlines.

So, anyway to sum up: sable parents can produce blacks, bi-colors, black and tans/reds. But blacks, bi-colors and black and tan/reds can only produce a sable if one of the parents is one. Am I right in the assumption that the sable gene is called a single dominant gene?

Chris

sable is always the dominant gene - if a dog carries sable, that dog is a sable dog.  Two black/tans could not produce sable puppies, because if there were any sable genes to give to the puppies, one of the parents would be sable.  The order of dominance is sable - black/tan - black.

molly

Thanks Molly,

Your dogs are beautiful!
I would have never thought that could happen, that's really neat!

My pups in the canoe have SG Alk von Osterburg Quell
as their Great Grand-sire!

Thanks for all the photo's everyone, the color combo's are all so interesting!

Once again, a good post!