What do you consider a UN REPUTABLE Kennel/Breeder? - Page 2

hmmm many of us know the obvious.....

no health clearances, no titles, life long breeding back to back to back to back, a kennel full of females being bred to the single male they own just to avoid stud fees finding studs that match each female......

 

how about the breeders that promise to be there for that pup then are not, and never respond to updates or when the owner finally figures out they never cared don't ask for updates when they stop.

How about when a breeder tells you a pup had a few issues because it was placed in a home for a week and someone got rough in it's handling but will be fine pup just had a rough patch of bad handleing, not that the pup was probably a shy and agressive pup to start with and the breeder didnt have the time to deal with it and is naturally agressive and they just wanted to dump it with you.

 

how about paying for a pup, show quality and breedable and the breeder sends it knowing there is umbilical hernia

 

how about a breeder that smiles at you says they are for the dogs and the love in those animals and then changes dogs like pairs of socks..............

 

I am sorry but the gsd "industry" sickens me...... I hate seeing a breeder saying what they are buying with puppy money and cutting corners on the breeding, another person breeding gsds and saying to the buyers here buy a working dog and being so clueless they make a comment to me yeah I am breeding for calmer gsds so the owners dont have to excersize them as much but yet advertiseing them as working gsds and service dogs! I hate that a breeder wanted me to take a pup for her because she needed to go out of country and didnt have time to deal with the pup she "cared" about only to find out she dumps several dogs and pups like this one regularly, yet she keeps breeding more. I have come to the conclussion it's all about the money and the first breeder that says they love the breed and that's why they do it i am running fifty miles the next way because I now believe they only say what they know you want to hear and they are liars. I need to purchase another gsd and honestly ...... I am thinking instead of a gsd which is the breed I love of buying another breed because I am fed up looking for what I need in a breeder and for the pup I need.............

 

 

Hi K9-Mon

I think your No 9 is a bit of a sweeping statement !!

I have been breeding for 25yrs and my dogs have never produced Whites, Epilepsy, Heamophilia or Dwarfism to name but a few and I dont expect that to change in the next 5yrs (by which time I will have been breeding for 30yrs). 

Once again, like MVF I believe you are a well meaning person but I do wish people wouldnt come here on this database  making such general sweeping statements, for they only serve to cloud what is a very important issue.

Appreciate your comment sueincc.

Best Regards

Sue B

I happily concede to Sue B's point that if I want a breeder to take cradle-to-grave resppnsibility, I have to admit to the possiblility that she will have a few golden oldies around -- her own retired dogs and even a few returns.  So the cap on number at 6-10 may be too severe. 

As I think about this in a dynamic sense, I realize that I am not happy about >10 dogs having to share the attention of one person, but a breeder who does things responsibly could have more than that number around at different times.  I don't really know if this means I would prefer a breeder of such small scale that this never happens, as that comes with some drawbacks, as well.

But surely we can all agree that an ethical constraint on number of some level is needed.  I passed on a puppy before I bought my recent pup -- a great little fellow, by the way -- because the breeder was producing 10+ litters a year, and was barely feeding the whelps.  I told her directly that the pieces of the puzzle did not fit together.  (She told me they had been weighed but was clearly dishonest about that -- as the pups were small, hungry, and disconsolate.)  I happen to think that this woman was not fundamentally flawed as a human being, but she was clearly overwhelmed, and once you have 15 or 20 dogs even life's little setbacks can mean real deprivation for everyone.

By the way, I did not mean that the breeder need take in until death all returned dogs -- I meant take care of them as a last resort.  Finding good homes, etc., seems ok with me for a dog who is returned.  That's different then selling off old bitches "who deserve a nice reitrement" as the telling expression goes  -- meaning somewhere else!  These are the breeders who are TELLING US directly that THEIRS IS NOT A GOOD HOME. 

I think we should try at some point to combine the best of each list, a document upon which we can build some consensus. 

Sue B : you should recall the rule: "all generalities are false, including this one."

This doesn't mean that one doesn't make them -- for setting such rules can be helpful.  It means that one knows that there are always exceptions.  I bet we would all agree that in 30 years of breeding, most gsd breeders never produced an affenspinscher. 

Breeders who say that in 30 years they have never produced weak nerves or bad hips are probably too be avoided, so I think the rule is a good one.  Generally.

There is a difference between selling older females, past their prime, just so one doesn't have to feed them anymore, and retiring them to a loving home. If I a really super home comes along, I have been known to spay and GIVE them an older female, spaying them before they leave, of course.

V21 Xara Ecknachtal, SchH3, KK1 lived her life out with a retired couple on a  hobby sheep farm in Nevada, sleeping in the bedroom every nght, playing with the sheep all day, and raising grand-children on weekends and holidays. I could not have done better for her.

The following is my list. It is not a list that I've contrived to say what I feel people WANT TO HEAR or one that INSIDERS would necessarily agree with - but it is my list, nevertheless. 1- Above and beyond anything else - a "good" breeder's dogs live a great lives. I'm not going to elaborate further than saying I have my own ideas about what a great life is. 2- Rigidity and inflexibility is a bad thing in any person, in any endeavor. People that never change their minds about anything are incapable of being good breeders because they're not constantly re-evaluating information and re-adjusting their opinions based upon the new input. This is something that is pretty easy to spot in a person (imo). 3- Breeders who espose the "party line" in all things send up a red flag to me. All the cliches - everyone here knows what they are. 4- Breeders who send older dogs off to retirement homes can't be good in my book. Rather than re-homing a retired dog they should forego taking on another youngster until that older dog dies. I know that many successful and pleasant mannered breeders protest when they hear this - but I believe it's because they are denying to themselves the realtiy that they love the dog hobby more than they love their individual dogs. These people can't be considered ethical in my book. Of course there are exceptions as far as re-homing goes. Death in family, divorce, loss of income, etc....But to get rid of an oldster so there will be room for a youngster is diabolically sinister. A double cross of the highest order and a shameful thing. 5- A good breeder understands that genetic diversity within a breed is more important for the health of the individuals than health screening! Polygenic health conditions like dysplasia are very unlikely to ever go away because people screen for hip problems. The narrower the gene pool the more these things will cause problems.Talking to someone for ten minutes is usually enough time to evaluate whether they are familiar with the topic at all. Health screening is the price we have to pay because breeders are ignorant about population genetics. 5- Breeders who try to "corner" the market by insisting on sterilization, insisting on limited registration and bullying puppy buyers into compliance on a whole host of issues are an abomination. 6- The quality of their dogs. Of course they need to be the kind of dogs one dreams of owning. But this is less related to the ethics of the breeder than the points above. Great topic, by the way.

Trafalgar  A+   !!!!!

I'm learning the "buyer beware" the hard way on more than one occation...

My list,  are things an UNethical breeder would ...  Ethical & Reputable are on in the same in my book !!

MAKE the buyer ASK to see OFA's,  Titles, and other pertinent info's...  Ethical would lay it all out on the table and explain it all...

ask people to give them money on a NON refundable basis ... an Ethical breeder COULD NOT accept payment for a service THEY did NOT provide...

allow someone to PICK a dog/pup with little or no information about lifestyle, wants, needs, desires, expectations...Ethical breeders take the time to find the answers to these things and BEST Fit with dog/pup...

never wants to hear from the purchaser again...Ethical breeder will be HOUNDING you for updates and photos...

REFUSES to take a dog/pup back in and be responsible for rehoming...Ethical breeder will be Kicking your BUTT if you don't bring it back to them...

does not return emails in a reasonably timely fashion, and does not want to be BOTHERED by purchasers once MONEY has exchanged hands... Ethical breeders are sending inquiry emails and answering the phone even in the middle of dinner,  and likely has made several calls of inquiry as well...

not Microchip or Tattoo, has a Contract that covers they're butt NOT the Pup/Dog & Purchaser... Ethical breeders contracts cover everyone,  especially the dog/pup !!!

not admit to mistakes made in the past,  not turn away a perspective buyer even if they did NOT have what the buyer was looking for,  not spend the time it takes to get to know the buyers,  ship a pup/dog off and NEVER follow up and make certain pup/dog arrived to destination... not answer calls from the airline or be available to answer calls from the airline...not provide all necessary paperwork in a timely fashion when shipping pup/dog... Refuse to provide Veterinary information for consultation...

This is an EXCELLENT Thread,  and Hopefully we can all learn from it.   :-)

 

 

 

 

Yes it is a great topic with every contributer making lots of valid points.

When 'vetting' prospective owners finding the RIGHT loving home with SUITABLE caring people should be the first priority,  NOT finding a buyer. Care enough about where your pups go and to whom and over the years you have very few returns except for the reasons you can never invisage such as an owners Divorce, Illness or Death. Breed very sparingly, only when you need something yourself to continue the line and the percentage of returns are very minimal.  In 25yrs I have had 5 returned and rehomed them all, I have also rehomed two before they ever got as far as coming back to me, this is because all my puppy owners know I am only ever as far as a phonecall away, whatever they need me for, so as owners usually know in advance they are going to split up and when that happens the dog will need rehoming the best time to contact me is then not later. That way it is possible to find the dog a new permanent home before the situation requires immediate attention and it is far better for the dog that he goes straight to his new home from them than having an intermediate home with me first.

On the other end of the scale when a multi millionaire family of four Man, Wife and two children came to visit (the 2nd part of my vetting process is the visit) the decision to not be selling them one of our still unborn pups was very easy to make - reasons were twofold :- The wife arrived in a pin striped skirt which she persistently brushed with her hands during the entire visit in her attempt to remove any dog hair that had the audacity to land on it !!                                                                       Question  - What thought did she put into what to where on this visit to my home to meet the dogs?                                 Answer - NONE !  Subsequently all the time I looked at her I had visions of this little cheeky pup playing in the garden then with muddy paws running excitedly back into her shiny sparkling kitchen and jumping up to greet her , imagine her reaction especially if she was busy preparing for one of her posh dinner parties !!  Various visions ran through my mind like an impending nightmare, decision was made for that reason alone but even had she turned up in jeans & teashirt they wouldnt have got one of my pups. Reason? They owned the most badly behaved, ill mannered children I have ever had the displeasure to enter my home, apart from jumping up and down on my furniture they then climbed onto my window ledge so they could see further down my garden, enough was enough, never mind the pin striped skirt, this couple couldnt or didnt care enough to control their own children, what hope a puppy? When I politely let them know I would not be selling them one of our pups they decided that offering me more money would change my mind, bad mistake !!  They were then told exactly why I would not be selling them a pup, AT ANY PRICE !  

I heard three months later they had acquired a GSD pup from some 'other' supposedly reputable breeder, this breeder even bragged about the millionaires who they sold a pup to for double the price (because they knew they could afford it) the pup paid handsomely too, it was put to sleep at 7mths of age because the children lost interest in it and the mother got fed up of cleaning up all th

Sorry dont know what happened to the end of my entry which went on to say

.....the pup paid handsomely too, it was put to sleep at 7mth of age because the children lost interest in it and the mother got fed up of cleaning up all the mess it made, presumably the father was too busy working at his millions to notice anything was missing , as for the breeders well I dont know. Obviously they didnt take the pup back. How did I get to know all this? From one of my puppy owners (whoes pup was now 5yrs old) who was a teacher at the Private School these millionair children went to and the fact these children had met the dog I bred was the reason they contacted me for a pup in the first place. My old customer was fine with the fact I had refused to sell them a dog, in fact felt quite proud of the fact she had one of my dogs yet one of her millionaire families were refused, she was the one who rang to tell me when they had acquired a pup some two months later from another breeder and also the one who rang me heartbroken to tell me she had heard they had the pup put down at 7mths. Of course she was relieved that my vigilance had ensured this poor unfortunate pup was not from me or therefore directly related to her own beloved dog.

What really should apply is not just Buyer but Seller Beware!!

Regards

Sue B

Amen Sue B   !!!!!    

Oh that story just broke my heart !!!!   Poor dog !!!  

You just made me so glad that everyone that buys a pup from us,  I sit them down look them strait in the eye and tell them if YOU ever have to give up this dog it MUST come back to me,   IF you PTS, or Give away, or surrender to shelter or otherwise,  I WILL SUE you and make YOU MY EXAMPLE !!!   

OMG I would die if someone did that to one of our babies !!!!   But first I would rip those peoples throats out !!!!