Who else likes, V3 Cello von der Römerau? - Page 2

Are you really  that naive????????

You talking to me, Ilse?

I may not know a lot about Schutzhund, but I did pretty well in German when I was in school.

From the Koer report: "courage and fighting drive pronounced, does not let out."

And it would be nice if you explained WHY you thought something someone said was incorrect, rather than insulting them, even if that post was NOT directed at me.

Marci,

I answered about the "no out" in the Mark Haus Beck thread, but I have to agree with Ilse: Are you guys serious about calling dogs who do not out "man stoppers"?

Yes, Cello is very important in our lines because it leads back to Mutz, but too much will bring washed out dogs and ear problems! Other warnings include roached backs, curved tails, short croups, short and steep upper arms and missing teeth. There certainly were legitimate reasons why the breeders favored the Canto/Quanto combination over the Mutz line and used it only sparingly. The type of our modern (showline) GSDs was produced by the Quanto- and Canto lines, not by Mutz. I do think that the Mutz line (and also the Marko line) is important to preserve because of workability, but combining these lines is not an easy task.

Chris

Well, Chris....

Have you REALLY looked at Cello's pedigree?????

lol

Here's the break down on the 3 major dogs of the past

Canto- 6,5,5,4

Quanto - 6,4

Mutz - 6.6.5

Now anyone who knows pedigrees knows also that the closer you get to the first 3 generations, the more influence a dog has in the make up of that particular dog. What does this look like to you??? Where are the 4's?? Seems to me, that CANTO HAD THE MOST INFLUENCE in Cello's make up!! Yes, he took after Mutz in his excellent work, but Quanto had excellent work also and produced it.  Judging from your information ALL of modern day problems came from Cello! lol Once again, looking at what we have available in the PDB, I see VERY FEW roach backs and mostly very typical straight backs with very good conformation from that day and time.  Let's all keep in mind that ANY heavy line breeding is going to produce faults. 

Just for snicks, who do you think was the best producer of the day??? 

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com http://castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

djc or gsddebby (or whatever you call yourself nowadays),

after our big clash a while ago, which resulted in you getting profane with Dog1, me and a few other people, I thought that we had an unspoken agreement to ignore each other. I guess I was wrong! First let me tell you that I intensely dislike you, even though I do not know you personally. Do you even realize what kind of tone you are using online? And no, I will not voice my opinion on the best producer of the day for your "snicks"!

But I will comment on what you wrote to give others a chance to judge for themselves:

When you read my post above (which you obviously did not), you will see that I wrote about the problems of the Mutz line (not Cello, who did not represent this line in appearance or production but rather followed the Q-litter Arminius). The Mutz line did produce these faults, in addition to others (wiry coat, missing teeth etc.). You can read up on all that in the Malcom Willis book "The GSD: A Genetic History", 1991 edition, page 77. Every serious breeder should own this book, it is a great resource! All important modern producers carry the Mutz line (besides the other two), because of the P-litter Wildsteiger Land (Nick Wienerau). But for the sake of clarity, only the male lines are counted in a dog. That is why Cello comes up as the most important descendant out of that line. Everybody who knows me personally knows how much I like the Mutz line in our dogs. As a matter of fact, earlier this year I wrote a "showcase" for our GSDWorld forum on Mutz and his descendants. Since I spent hours researching, I do feel that I know what I am talking about. Personally, I would love to find Mutz through his descendant VA-Fando v. Suedblick (Nick Wienerau as well), but I have not had much luck so far. My litter with VA-Nando vom Gollerweiher (lines to Fando through his mother to VA-Anusch and his sire's dam line to Yugo) did not bring what I was looking for. While I do realize that it takes "two to tango", I have not seen too much out of Nando but I hope that it will still come! Gisela (Nando's breeder) had some nice offspring and also owns his sister. For me, the Mutz line could also be the key of trying to bring the showlines and workinglines back together by the descendant Lump vom Osterberger Land (Kimm Werseufer sons Cliff Moehnequelle and Falk Berkelau).

But as with all other dogs, breeders should be aware of problems before linebreeding indiscriminately on any dog! As to Cello: In the early 90s, a (now deceased) famous breeder was quoted : Too much Cello is a killer for ears!

Sunsilver,

although I am not Ilse and I did not call anybody naive, I want to clarify the "no out" issue. While there are many legitimate reasons for a dog not to out and a lot have nothing to do with "issues", there is a consensus though that a dog who does not out won't leave the helper either!

Chris

I agree with everything Chris said about Cello and his bloodlines. Actually, I'm heading over to my storage unit to pull out Willis' book when I go out for errands today. thanks for the citation, Chris. Cool I don't even have to search for the right page!

I don't mind seeing Quanto in a pedigree, although too much Canto makes my skin crawl. Obviously Cello brought some nice working abilities back into the show dogs lines, likely through Mutz, whatever else he may have brought with them. Thus, I LIKE to see Cello in a show line pedigree. In fact, you will not see many show dogs in my kennel without Cello somewhere back in the pedigree, if not more than once. The less-desireable traits he brings are easily overcome with intelligent breeding.

If you ask me, (which nobody did, I realize) Cello looks mosre like Lasso di Val Sol, a VERY prepotent Waunto Weinerau son I liked to see in a pedigree, who also brought quite a bit of working ability to the showlines, and Johnny Rheinhalle, than he does Canto, intense linebreeding or no.

SS

Believe me Chris the feeling IS mutual, but that has nothing to do with this conversation and you are the one bringing up the past not me. I did in no way get profane with you or dog one.  Take things how you will. I will never kiss up to you arrogant do no wrong types. Nope I'm not perfect but no one tries hard than I with the resources I have to better the breed. I don't take flack from you or any other people on here, as this board is full of totally negative and nieve people just waiting to pounce on someone.  BTW I do not start fights, only defend myself. 

That being said. Here is your statement from you post.... "Yes, Cello is very important in our lines because it leads back to Mutz "  here is what you just said in the next post "you will see that I wrote about the problems of the Mutz line (not Cello, who did not represent this line in appearance or production but rather followed the Q-litter Arminius). "

Sure looks like you were speaking of Cello to me!! lolHis name is right in the sentence which I read clearly.

But whatever.... lol If you want to take what you said about Cello, back then it's fine with me.

Of course all of the old lines have their faults, nobody is saying any different. But to classifiy Cello as strictly Mutz lines is simply not true. That is my only point.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com http://castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

2 other thoughts here.

Anyone who discounts the mother line, no matter how "traditional" that may be is doing a dog a serious injustice!! In fact many think that it is the mother line that creates and carries on trates much better than the sire line.

Also, in Malcolm Willis's book on page 78 he discusses Mutz's best son Jonny von der Rheinhalle. Once can clearly see that Jonny improved greatly, in just one generation, on some of the things that Mutz himself was faulted for.  Yes, I love Mutz and Cello too for bringing the good working drives. Very valuable and easily navigatable for correting any faults if one takes care in researching the lines being bred.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com http://castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

djc,

it is really funny that you  do not recall our clash. It was over your insinuations on bitework and certain judges, remember? When we jumped in (Dog 1, D.H., I and a few others) you started calling us "know-it-alls" etc. You have used profanity in other threads like your big mudslinging competition with that co-owner of yours who wanted to have naming rights. Another time was when you told everybody to wait and look for your upcoming male being shown in the Nationals and the Sieger Show. That was in correlation with some people calling on your breeding program with some untitled dogs. You also called a certain Brenda an a..whole (BTW, that is spelled without the "w") under the comment section of your male. If you wish to refresh your own memory, please go and check. If that is not profanity, when what is? You and only you set yourself up for the negativity directed towards you, nobody else does. Example: Your male who supposedly will do so well in all aspects. I believe you mentioned that a couple of years ago. Well, he is now almost 9 years old and if he is to accomplish all of that, you better hurry up, lol. No breeding program is without faults and we all have our setbacks, but the key to overcoming it without negativity is "being humble". 

You ridiculed my first post here without knowing any facts (quote>>>Judging from your information ALL of modern day problems came from Cello! lol <<<unquote). When I pointed out that I was talking about the Mutz line and that Malcolm Willis has listed the same faults in addition to some others, you accused me of confusing Cello and that it is fine with you if I took my remarks about Cello back. Again, you did not read clearly! The sentence made it clear what I was taking about. (quote>>>....Yes, Cello is very important in our lines because it leads back to Mutz, but too much (of Mutz - should have put it in there for you to clarify) will bring washed out dogs and ear problems! <<<unquote). It is ok to have different opinions and to question other posts or ask for clarification, but your tone is extremely rude. For me, that is a total lack of social skills.

As to your remarks on Jonny Rheinhalle: He was not discussed as Mutz' best son, but as the "principle source of Mutz "blood". 90% of the Mutz line comes through him (Nick vd Wienerau, Fando v Suedblick, Lump v Osterberger Land, Jupp vd Haller Farm), but there are a few others who carried the Mutz blood over as well, i.e. the A-litter v Kleinen Pfahl (Batu has lines to it), Hasso vd Gruenen Laterne, Jory vd Grone, Atlas v Dannenwalder Grund, A-litter v Gruendel. Jonny produced some of the same problems as his father did (ears, pigment warnings) but proved to be a better sire than his brother Jalk, not his father.

Years ago, I had a Fando Suedblick-daughter who was also very light in color. She had superior conformation and placed SG-27 at the German Sieger Show. She also did not hesitate to bite a helper without a sleeve, as one found out the hard way. In addition, she unfortunately passed on ear problems as well if not paired up correctly. With VA-Jeck vom Noricum in a litter for her first owner, she produced a male whose one ear never came up, even after repeatedly taping. I had her bred to VA-Nero vom Hirschel and she had a female with "friendly ears" in there. When paired up with our own VA-male who had a Mutz-line over Wicko Michaelswiese, one of the puppies kept his "conehead" (ear set too close). More recently (3 years ago), my litter with VA-Hill vom Farbenspiel with a different female also produced one floppy eared dog (no taping helped). This particular female has never produced any ear problems in her puppies. On the contrary, these ears usually stand at 16 weeks of age at the latest.

The famous, now deceased breeder who stated tha

The famous, now deceased breeder who stated that too much Cello was a killer for ears also had a great female who was linebred 3-2 on Mutz (without Jonny Rheinhalle). One line went to the A-litter "v Kleinen Pfahl" and one to Jory vd Grone. This female produced famous VA-dogs. Since this breeder had quite a few Cello progeny as well, he might have gained this information by trial and error. He was generally considered a great source of knowledge.

(Sorry, this part did not post correctly).

Chris

Chris,

My memeory is pretty good unlike, your's which is quite clouded and confused.

Wow, I get one thread were I call a jerk a jerk and all of the sudden all of my defences have become profane.  I call a spade a spade. Brenda's comment is on a bitch of mine and there for all to see. Just look under Yentel v Bullinger and you will see what was said.  She came out of the clear blue to insult my dog. Let everyone judge if my answer was appropriate or not. You are some piece of work and your problem is that I do not fall at your feet and worship you like your cronies.  You are a very typical traditionalist. I AM NOT! and that is what bugs you so much. I think rules should be rules and followed the same for both working and show. That helper at the 2006 BSZS was not performing the attack out the blind correctly for whatever reason. My only comment about the judge was that he should have corrected it as he obviously saw it over and over. YOU are willing, just like all the other "sheep", just to follow along the path of ingnoring what you want, whether it has to do with not following  written rules or not. Sorry I do not ignore what is not correct.

My answer to your post was in not ment to be rude. Just discussing the facts and what I see as discrepency. If you can not handle someone pointing out a different view of the facts then don't put you neck out there. There was no personal vendeta, I would have said that same thing no matter who posted it.  It is your problem if you took it that way.

My 8 year old is doing well considering he is an aging dog. Once again you are off. I never did nor would have discussed taking him to the sieger show only schutzhund competition.  Anyone who has worked him or known him can vouch for his abilities. He is SchH 2 and HOT and more than willing to keep going, but he pays for it afterward now and I am not willing to put him through that.  His working pictures are there for all to see.

It is my young dog that you are probably thinking of as he is doing exceptionally well also and will be shown in both conformation and competition Schutzhund. I'm glad you are watching! I estimate he will be ready for SchH nationals in 2009. Mark you calendar. He will not be a VA dog but will V in confomation and have a good shot at Universal Sieger. That's all I need.  In fact I think that is even better than VA Sieger. But even if he does not make Universal Sieger, the main thing in my mind is that he has what it takes to compete in any work or show competition and do respectably. That should be all breeders goal, whether they be working or show lines. 

There is no one saying that there are not ear problems with some lines!  Thanks for bringing in some of the modern lines that are having some problems.

Debby