Red dogs - Page 2

Zidane is incredible looking.  But I was talking about less black.  And I know caring about color is foolish!

The thread pod pointed out had the look I was thinking of -- the mal/gsd crosses and lookalikes have it, I guess.

Thanks.

I disagree with the term RED Sable... unless the dog started as pup with dark hair that diminished through age...  Isn't it that... Sable refers to the tipping of Black...   " Its not Black... then its grey or Sable..."  So You can definitely term RED sables, synonymous to fading Black... A well pigmented GSD should be well pigmented both in the DARK overlay and Base hair...   and if it's not BLACK its GREY... end of arguement...

Undercoat -- it can range from nearly white to deep red.  When it's darker we say it "improves" pigment.  Not because there is a lot or a little background color, but because of the depth of the color.

Overlay in agouti or sable dogs -- it can range from richly pigmented black to gray.  I agree that deeper pigment should, consistent with the red, mean "better" pigment.  But, again, not because there is a lot or a little black banding or tipping, but because its individual pigment is deep. 

So a sable dog with just a little deeply black banding is "better" pigmented than a sable dog with lots and lots of black-grey tipping.

Again, I think the whole color focus a tad unimportant in the great scheme of things, but please be consistent!  If pigment quality refers to the depth of color and not the amount on the dog, it should be the same for black as for red.

Thank you Bucko we like him!  I was told he was a red sable he looks red to me no agrument here.  I am not in to the color or looks of a dog but its working abilty and health. Marlene

Pigment is not the same as color, dogs lacking pigment (lacking a dark face/black mask, faded black color, white toenails etc.) is not desirable.  Dogs with great COLOR (red) IS desirable.  A dog might have alot of color but the black should be BLACK, not grey or faded or significantly lacking.  Some Sables will have more color than others but the black should still be BLACK.  A black and cream GSD can still have great pigment...the COLOR is what is cosidered to be poor.

 If you are talking about a mal look-alike that is NOT correct for a GSD. 

Regards,

Melanie

Bucko,

a red sable dog changes the appearance quite frequently. When the dog is not in full coat he appears darker, when in full coat lighter.

Two examples with some of our own dogs we have owned/bred or currently own:

Henni vom Silbersee (USA): www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/451163.html Now, I have not seen Henni for a long time since she left us, but she is dark red as a sable. In that photo, she was 10 months old, but my guess is that she has a lot more black now too (I hope).

My husband's male, V-Ronaldo von Arlett is also a dark red sable (and produces it): http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/343309.html When you look at his two sons, Kaleb (photo taken at about 12 weeks and Kyser (photo taken at about 10 months) you can see their red pigment. They also dispute the nonsense that breeding two sables together produces washed out dogs.

According to Willis, the Uran Wildsteiger Land-line has a "tendency to bright but not ideal colors". He meant that in connection with fading and/or small black saddles and orange-red pigment. Just check out VA-Karly von Arminius and some of his offspring.

Another dog with fading black markings would be VA-Dux della Valcuvia and some offspring, luckily not all.

Keep in mind that black is not pigment, only the degree of tan/brown/red is. In Germany, there have been oingoing concerns with lack of black markings for years. But I truly think that breeders have had great success in bringing this back.

Chris

Chris, Both dogs are beautiful I LOVE THE RED!

Marlene

Chris

Henni and Ronaldo are both incredible, but I don't think I would have realized that Ronaldo is a sable.  Interesting that they can be so visually similar.

To everyone:

Now, I fully understand that the beauty pageants can be fashionistas about color, but isn't it pretty much true that you need to be B/R (or a great Ronaldo-like imitation) to win in the show ring anyway?  So for those who want working dogs, we should be able to work purple dogs if they are great at what they do.  Or so it seems to me.

Non disputandum gustibus est -- there is no disputing taste.  Why not encourage people to favor whatever they like, so there is a perfect home for that sable pup without much black, or the B/T pup who is fading away?  These are pups who will not see the light of day in the show ring anyway.  I don't think this forum should be about creating conformity on color.  I think the pressure to ttrain, title, hip certify before breeding is more than enough.

there is no disputing taste.  Why not encourage people to favor whatever they like, so there is a perfect home for that sable pup without much black, or the B/T pup who is fading away

Because it creates a demand for color types that should not be bred on purpose.  It creates Back Yard Breeders trying to reproduce this flaw.  Then you get those "rare GSD" breeders who charge rediculous amounts of money for "Blue's, Liver's or panda Shepherds" to suckers that think they're getting a RARE GSD. 

Hey if you want to give a home to a pup like you describe from normal parents then good for you....just please don't support, encourage those "rare GSD" breeders out there that do this on purpose.....