2-2 Breeding on Nick Heiligenbosch - Page 2

Knowledge of bloodlines and their  bad and goods is not evryone,s speciality here .... and some here do not know anything of the matter.  

Nick Heiligenbosch was a fantastic dog ,  but a 2-2  on him .......... OH YEAH ,GREAT , LETS DO IT ,WOW...morons

I guess you mean me, huh?

Care to share the specifics of your comment just to help us understand and appreciate the depths and severity of my moron status?

I'd rather see a 2,3 or 3,4 on Nick, but would take a chance on a 2,2.

SS

No need to get crazy everyone sees things different I am sure all agree Nick was a great producer..but genetically speaking this 2-2 is crazy type breeding....there was a program on animal planet I watched dealing with close DNA issues /line breeding and all the allgeries, and other health and eye problems etc with this type of close breeding and what it brings far more harm than good..chronic pancreatis was mentioned and a host of other immune systems disorders..I would think a healthy dog is what most would want....I will try and find some things I saw as well on the internet reguarding close line and in breeding...I have always felt outcrosses produced stronger dogs health and temperament wise but I know some breeders in Europe do this curious to see stats on the outcomes...they are always hoping for the dogs to be like the ones they are linebreeding on I am sure but I do not think this pans out maybe you would get one great dog but how about all the sick ones..something to think about...does anyone know what the SV regulations are on this will they register a dog breed like this just asking...AKC will but they have no standards..Marlene

I believe you may need special dispensation from either the breed warden in your region or the SV itself to make such a close linebreeding, but don't try to take that to the bank. As Alabamak9 pointed out,  the faults in the bloodline would indeed be concentrated as well as the positive characteristics: a double-edged sword to be sure.

I would probably BUY a dog with 2,2 on Nick, but don't look for me to breed a LITTER with 2,2 on ANYTHING.

SS

I think genetic diversity is obviously a good thing, but I don't think one should not condemn an inbreeding as a matter of principle.  The benefits are obvious and the costs are very long term.  The only way to condemn the 2-2 is to follow the breeding and compare its longevity to that of comparable breedings, as the cost is primarly in the form of more recessive matches at the phenotype level.  A 2-2 breeding imposes a greater risk of genetic disease than a looser breeding, so if there is no evidence of this, the breeding can be said to have worked out.  The benefits happen early, the costs later, so one needs patience to know for sure.

One ethical problem would be if the buyers were somehow ignorant of the inbreeding or the risks.  I think that in this case, the buyers would all be knowledgeable folks who understand the risks.

Another ethical problem would be if the breeder did not redouble his efforts to research every possible recessive ailment and seek to determine just what genetic risks were possible.  A casual 2-2 is of course a problem.  Again, this case is not one of those, surely.

As well, I think the experts should be trusted.  When people who truly know these dogs and lines take a chance like this -- and we don't know in advance that they cared only for the first five years of the dogs' lives -- I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

There are medical reasons to do this, too.  A 2-2 will uncover insidious recessives floating around.  If the 2-2 proves clean, those lines are now very valuable.

In the end, you may not be willing to buy a pup from a 2-2, but someone else might.  A friend asked me for advice on a 1-2 breeding and ignored me when I told him to pass, and the dog did die of mysterious ailments at a year.  But he was honestly informed by the breeder, by me, and by his vet.  So he took his chances and lost.  I personally feel the dog suffered needlessly, and think the burden of proof is on the breeder of a tight linebreeding.  But again, I don't think we should condemn these as a matter of principle.

Just a thought:

By the time we find out the success or failure of the 2,2 Nick produce, perhaps years down the road, there probably won't be any dogs around to offer that close linebreeding.

The results from Koos (Tiekerhook) 2-2 linebreedings have overrall been shockingly nice.  He knows the history of these dogs inside and out particularly because many have been bred by him. So thorough knowledge of the lines as relates to temperament, drive and health issues is very important.  Personally, I wouldn't do anything closer than 2-3 for fact that for longevity it is linebreeding heavily and limiting my options so to speak and I would be compelled to want to add different blood in to hopefully decrease my likelihood of any flukes such as three eyes or something. LOL

I take it you don't correlate three eyes with "hybrid vigor.." ;)

There goes my bent sense of humor again...

LOL Behave Shelley! I know it's the weekend and you're excited. LOL!!!

www.stason.org/tularc/animals/dogs/breeding-faq/021-genetics.html

www.yourburebredpuppy.com/tutorial1.html  I hope the links work sometimes I leave out a letter or make a mistake

You have to scroll down to read some of the articles pretaining to this...

I am sure there are some super results some of the females  here I am sure have some linebreeding done in Eurpope but I will not breed this way just a personal choice..I have always been careful...if you look at the poodles in gerneral have you ever seen one who did not have a sensitve stomach or skin allgeries not very many all this was introduced from line breeding...there is more of this in toys /designer breeds than the shepherds I am sure but the gene pool is something you need to watch carefully when breeding a pair of dogs

Marlene