Different training philosophies: sport dog vs real dog - Page 2

I, personally think civil aggression is best. But some dogs are purely prey and go after the sleeve only. I would like to bring out my dogs civil aggression a bit more. But, if you're in it purely for sport and are not interested in actual protection dog, than you should probably go for a shepherd with prey drive only.

Pia: Which way do you train?  Does your dogs see any civil during Schutzhund traing?  Will he jump back into the helper with the sleeve in his mouth asking for more play? 

I train  or shall I better say my dogs are trained to use both  prey and defence instincts . They are to react to whatever situation  is presented.   The 2 dogs I mentioned  yes  they both brought the sleeve back to the helper and basicly slammed it into him ........play well it's the way one wants to percive it  I guess >  See a dog trained in the sport is conditioned to excerises  he must comply to in order to receive it's desire  which in case of Schutzhund is the sleeve .  The same dog off the field away from set patterns  is not nessarrly a dog that is a push over or looks for a sleeve .

Although the reactions of dogs in a real or sport situation wasn't what I was getting at, I agree with you that just cause they are sport dogs doesn't mean they won't react appropriately to a real situation, but I think that the way you train also has an affect on this.  

 Pia reply ...So  lets flip the coin dogs used for personal protection or so called REAL work  they also are exposed to  training patterns  to teach them to react ..right    Any type of service regardless of what service or sport it is the dog first of all must bring with him the  genetic influence then trainig will develope it's skills  .  So u tell me whats real or not . Sure I have the upmost respect for service dogs police dogs SAR dogs  these dogs   do a service I highly respect !! but a service taught to them by humans . So the sport of Schutzhund is to test the dogs abilities again tests that have been developed to TEST and pove the training and gentic abilities.

My question was asking whether or not you think it's okay (with your dog) to let the "macho" go in training and to be pure sport (like the top trainer) or do you want to leave that edge open for reality (bottom trainer) and not desensitize your dog to the helper by having them jump on them playfully with the sleeve in their mouth.  Rezkat's answer is what I was looking for, she said that this is a sport/hobby for her and she doesn't mind that her one dog playfully interacts with the helper.

Well, all I can tell you is  I want my dog to comply to the rules , one training session I made a handler mistake my dog took the helper  full bite  on the side of his body I had to out the dog off  him .   Helper had a bit of a good bruise and teethmarks  even though he was wearing scratchpants . I felt like an ass !!  See it's not my choice  a dogs makeup is a dogs make up   most top competition dogs have a good portion of aggression the just prey biting  stuff ain't gonna make it that far !!

My opinion give me a versitile  balanced dog and I can do what ever I choose  , give me one with restrictions and my choices will be restricted !!

Pia

I personally prefer civil, "police-type" protection training, but I think both methods have their place and one way may be more suited for a certain and and/or certain handler than another.  I've said this in a thread before: not every handler has the ability or responsibility to own a defensively trained dog. They both serve a purpose, I don't think anyone from either camp has the right to malign the other.

Thanks Pia, great explaination!

Fortunately I have a very balanced dog that is extremely adaptable.

There is no right or wrong answer here, I just wanted to hear what everyone thought.  Thaks to all that replied.

Also I probably shouldn't have used the terms "sport dog vs real dog".  I was just trying to explain each training method/mentality by using sterio typical words to label them.  I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Regards,

Melanie

And if anyone is interested here is a recent video of my dog, nothing special...just training

Melanie,

I think it's fair to use the terms "sport dog" and "real dog" because Schutzhund by design is a choreographed routine.  There is hardly any "reality" in the protection routine.  "Blind search"?  The dogs aren't searching for anything - they're taught to run in a zig zag fashion down the field.  All the bitework is done with the helper wearing a bulky jute sleeve.  Every protection routine is the same pattern, with the same exercises.

If your goal is compete in the sport and score points, then your private trainer is on the mark.  Why bother with "reality" training if you're never going to present the dog with a situation that is NOT "the pattern"?  I would argue that it is easier to train sport work than civil work because a dog working in prey is just playing a game, and the dog never has to THINK, just execute the pattern by rote memory. 

However, training civil work should require a far more experienced trainer and decoy.  You really don't want to screw up with this kind of training!  If your dog is a half-assed trained sport dog then what's the worst case... the dog can't pass in a trial?  Big deal!  A half-assed trained protection dog... big problem and potentially a dangerous situation.

Personally, I would like my dog to receive a good dose of reality, but that is difficult at best.  At my SchH club our helper is not very experienced and I would never ask him to do something he is not comfortable with or prepared to do.  He's a fine helper for sport work, however, so we'll stick with that for now.

Naturally, each dog brings different drives and temperament to the table.  Some dogs could only do prey work, some dogs are too sharp.  Some dogs would be naturally protective "for real" without any formal training, but I suspect that many handlers believe that their dogs are "for real" without actually having faced a life threatening real world attack to confirm their wistful thinking.

If your dog can do both, and you have trainers that have the appropriate training, then go for it. 

Yvette

Training a sport dog vs training a personal protection...it is much more difficult to train schutzhund sport that is why a lot of people opt to not do schutzhund...I have trained dogs to a BH but never titled a dog with bite work and protection in schutzund ...but I can train straight protection which is a piece of cake compared to the sport..not only for the trainer but the dog...schutzhund requires a lot of control and precision bite routines personal protection does not ..as far as the prey element not all sport dogs are total prey driven if this is what you are saying..my dog has never had one day of PP training...will he bite you anywhere you want him to and do real protection you bet he will...it is the dog all dogs do not have a civil side to them ...a dogs  training does not make your dog civil genetics do..I would much rather see a dog trained with schutzhund  methods and if desired the owner with hidden sleeve can turn the dog over to PP later if desired..makes a much safer dog to use again going back to control issues..I am sure you all have seen  cops were the dog is hard to remove from the bad guy ..the officer cant call him off he is thrashing and refused to aus...they a lot of times they are  using dogs not suitable for the sport and it shows..yes they will bite ...is it hard crushing and calm...no !....it does not have to be....you do not need to have a judge there to see the pressure a bite is a bite it is affective to stop the guy...I have seen the mechancial sport dog dancing and bouncing and  no I do not like that type of dog myself either  ...I prefer a hard dog with a lot of heart , civil but stable and yes they are harder to train for the sport and they are harder to find...Right PIA ...there are many sport dogs who could not do Police work I grant you that but for every one of them there are ten Police dogs who could not do the sport of  schutzhund a much harder narrow window of criteria to meet...my three cents

Quote"I am sure you all have seen  cops were the dog is hard to remove from the bad guy ..the officer cant call him off he is thrashing and refused to aus."

MOST K-9 units do not teach the aus  and use the choke out method . It is not taught all that much (ausing) for safty reasons. So to the normal sport person yes it looks like no controll but you can not knock the dogs due to the way of training used.

Andy is a great example of a balance dog the "real thing"  there are many police dogs that are trained in ScHH  and some dept. use ScHH routes to teach and work thier dogs . I guess it depends who you know and  where you live.

Pia wrote

"The 2 dogs I mentioned  yes  they both brought the sleeve back to the helper and basicly slammed it into him ........play well it's the way one wants to percive it  I guess >  See a dog trained in the sport is conditioned to excerises  he must comply to in order to receive it's desire  which in case of Schutzhund is the sleeve .

Why does te sleeve have to be what the dog desires.  I am training with someone who has been in Sch for 40 years.  He trains the dog to be a what Sch dogs used to be.  Our protection work is serious, not prey drive.  We dont even use "tugs on a rope" that are swung to entice the dog to chase.  The dog is trained that protection work is just that.  Protection Work.  When I work I get paid.  Me dog gets paid in praise.  Every time I pet him it is like a $5 bill.  The better he does the  more $5 bills he gets.  I have never used a ball to train focus in obedience.  Yet my dog keeps focused on me at all times.  He has since the first day I started working him.  He wants to please me.  The same for Protection work.  He wants to protect me.  If the helper drops the sleeve and the dog carries it off to go play.  The helper will chase his ass down and teach him the threat is the helper.  The sleeve dont mean a damn thing.  This same dog can go to the local school and sit with me at my sons football practice and get hugged and played with by all the little kids. It is all in the training.  He wants to get paid so he does what he is aksed. 

I used to train where all prey was used.  I did not like the problems that came up with that.  It did not seem to work for many of the dogs that were there. 

s vargas

I think you are missing something.  If you were going to work on a car, would you use only a hammer because that is the tool that you are most familiar with?  Or would you use every tool in the box?  To me it is a waste of God given talent to not utilize everything the dog brings to the table.  If you are lucky, the dog is a well balnced dog that brings everything.  Schutzhund is a sport.  The supposed goal is to get the most points available.  In order to do that your dog will tap into all drives, even prey.  If he doesn't,  your escape, courage test and every other exercise will be less than excellent.  Does your dog do a forced retrieve?  If he doesn't, then you have realized that some of the dog's other drives are useful.  Why not take the same approach to protection?  You can still have a very serious dog in protection.  I'm not saying that I advocate the 100% prey drive protection either.  I think a dog should be balanced.  Like I've said before, I always hate to see a dog go into the blind and beg for the sleeve.  It is the worst picture. 

As to the main topic of discussion, I think there are a wide range of people and trainers that do assorted types of training.  If you are in the sport, you have to do what you want to do and find a club that has the same philosophies as you.  S Vargas sounds like aguy that likes what he likes and trains with people that share his beliefs.  That is the way it goes.  If you are with a group and they feel differently than you, either change your philosophy or better yet, find a new group to train with.  When it comes to police or protection dogs, etc., there is no other choice, but to train the dog to succeed in a real life situation.  You don't want to send a dog into a real situation with just his d!^k in his hand.  Sport dogs, on the other hand, will probably never be presented with a real life threatening situation.  So it is really up to you whether that is the type of training for your dog and you.

I think that what lousy sport trainers miss, right along with lousy police/pp trainers is that there is a time a place for both, without some of each the dog is out of balance and in the end focusing on one or the other too heavily and lack of balance to either side will lead to a dog not reaching it's full potential.  A lot of the prey work done in sport is very appropriate for young dogs of both types - akin to teaching young kids martial arts but in the sense that it is a game and not life or death.  They learn the moves, develop the technique and conditioning as the grow – and guess what else if growing?  The kids/dogs emotional maturity, confidence and ability to deal with stress.  As the kid/dog matures, their routines will lack the power they need in either without them learning to tap aggression - but you don't teach them from day one they are in a fight for their lives or you are courting disaster.  Same with pee-wee football.  That might be where a future hall of famer starts out but it, as a game (heck even at the JV level), is a far cry from the NFL and the agression they need to learn to have and control later.

Tap the aggression too young and you lead to burn out in the dog. Tap it too often and you can ruin the dog. You can take the toughest special forces/SWAT dude in the world and put him in a firefight daily and he will eventually burn out.    Tap the prey too much and you'll never see a convincing dog who is working vs. playing.  When you see dogs that are trained too much one way or the other you're seeing a reflection of bad trainers not bad dogs.

I have more issue with the poor police/pp trainers. The bad sport trainers typically won’t destroy a dog by working it only in prey, they just keep it from reaching it’s true potential. The police trainers, with their old school, handed down through the ages “this is how it’s done” or you’ll have a dog that won’t work crap training really abuses a lot of good dogs that could be *handled* well is someone with a little skill was working them. The same goes with the “all-aggression/all the time” mentality about bite work – the dogs “need to be tough on the street” so they put them into street fight daily in training. Who cares if they break them down or the dog becomes a civil liability? Someone else is always paying the bills…