Backyard schutzhund - Page 2

Don corleone -- with no disrespect .. your post just shows how ignorant you are about training a dog -- conditioning a behavior in a dog is not the same as your so so called training . that is why so often i do not use the words ..l like everybody else .. drive , training , etc. ... In sch as with other types of sports .. yes the dog is patterned  trained so much so that it does not have to think  but merely do the routine . ... many train sch that way and I do not put it down because the name of the game is points, flash and show  !  But please i have trained sch .. every single step .. every single gesture .. every single hand motion .. every single session ... exactly the same .. therefore dogs can very very very easily anticipate how  the routine is done... over and over the same in that respect .. they can anticipate and do anticipate .. the 10 feet fast .. 10 feet normal 10 feet  slow .. the about turns .. the turns etc.  for the Sch pattern is in and of itself exactly thge same for all comptetors .. additionally .. many people in Sch have two sets  of commands ..one for competing and the other for everyday . [ my dogs respond in a thinking fashion and they will do the same  quallity obedience anywhere , anytime and anyplace with exactitude ] .only one platz , steh and sitz .. .. the gist of the post was .. that he should not be hard on himself because overall it was not a bad presentation .. not a polished Sch routine .. but then again Sch is Sch ..if he wants to do elemnts of KNVP or other mixtures .. another conecpt  that is ok ..for the dogs have to think  when performing .. better a thinking dog than a Sch pattern  ritual.  ..and I repeat ..without the Sch polish he shouldn't be so critical ..Don C -- you can be a sarcastic son of a gun if you choose .. i really don't care -- but when comes to the GSD and training -- you need to go a long long way ...

further explanation for new comes . In sch you can teach he dog so many paces an automatic sit .. so many paces a right turn .. so many paces an about turn . the "j" pattern .. day after day if you are very consistant the dog so called memorizes the routine .. especially if you perform it exactly the same way .. you could almots take yourself right out of the picture and the routine is the same exactly for the dog .. with or without you .. never changes /.. Now all dogs should be in attending to you in any sport..[that is a different topic. for the other sports i made mention to like Ring or KNVP the obedience requirement is not as flashy but it is more demanding on the dog for the judge even signals you when to stop and instructs you how to turn . you can practice the exercises but you do not know what the routine will be until the trial begins! you can't  train your dog 10 paces this 15 paces that , we turn here , this and that ! your dog cannot know the pattern and cannot anticpate say where an automatic sit will be.. etc. it must be mindful of you .. we teach our dogs .. they must think !!!  even in obedience , yes we condition our dog ..of course it is a test as to what you have taught and what the dog has learned. BUT the dog learns and performs through deductive reasoning .."if this....  then that" . If he stops..  then i sit.  the cognition of the dog is  NOT as in Sch .. ok 10 feet normanl pace 10 feet slow pace 10 feet normal pace [ an ingrained pattern /behavioral response within the dog .. it's a whole ..not a part ] ... in other sorts there is no pattern .. it is the dog's responsibility to pay heed and follow your lead figuratively and literally . nothing artificial . it is not within normalcy for a dog to be looking into your face everytime it walks .. that is a trained routine .. or put it this way .. how long and for how far can you expect a dog to do that ? 2 kilometers , 5 kilometers? looks great for a routine ..i do not knock it .. but aside from Sch not mandatory for grat obedience. i have my dogs never take thier eyes off me even in ring .. not because it looks nice .. but it a way i instill self control in them .. if i control the eyes then i control their thoughts and actions .. i do not use a leash or a collar . i use my  Relationship with my dog .. not a preconcieved routine or pattern either .. for the record .. the one who taught the best in germany going back 40 years a go saw my obedience with my GSD trained for sport other than sch ..after watching within 5 minutes..  wanted him in the Budesseigerprufung .. my dogs THINK as they perform !

Alphapup, you put it exactly what I want to achieve, i.e. a dog who is not a robot but a companion with who I can communicate and do things together. I know it will take time, however; one advantage that I have is my dog. He is a lot better than the handler (that's me). On the other hand he is also a very strong dog so compulsion will not work, I have tried. I really screwed up during his protection routine in trying to get him to do the "aus". Was trying to do it with compulsion, the results were exactly opposite, he would not let go. Most other dogs would have gone to avoidance, not this guy, just went in to defence mode whereby he just wanted to kill the decoy. Finally had to take a break and start using the reward/communication method and now it works great, no more defence, mostly prey and ready for a fight. My problem was, I was not communicating with my dog and was relying too much on "experts". One thing I have learned by watching Ivan's tapes and reading his books, is to clearly understand and communicate with your dog, whichever works is fine so long it is clear. Believe me when I first started this with my dog he would just look at me like "what do you want?" After a couple of sessions once he got it, it was easy. It took me literally 2 attempts to get him to do the stand while in motion in less than 2 minutes - I kid you not. A lot of what you see is because of him picking up what we are trying to do and doing it to see if it works. I still have to figure out how to do this in the street with all the distractions especially those pesky cats!! Thanks for your feedback.

ahh, sch is all patterned routine, and in Ring there is no prep line, no place for you to cue your dog to the exact exercise they are going to be performing?  People don't train using a set of cues that they pattern over and over again for every exercise?, people don't say leave it before they do food refusal? They don't cue them and amp them up the same way every time for the send away?  Just because the path they use to get to the exercise area might not be the same doesn't mean there is no conditioned cues involved.

I don't think one is any easier than the other to be good at, to get to a high level, a good dog, good handler and good training will all have to be a part of it regardless of the sport. 

Alpha

I hate to do it, but you are a moron.  I barely ever do the routine in training.  Maybe you trained with some inadequate trainers, but nobody I know trains the way you explained.  Don't base your one day at the club that booted you to the curb as the way everyone trains.  Sometimes, I think you read some shitty articles and don't get out enough to actually train.  Your ignorance is nothing more than a lack of knowledge.

Don Corleone ... As  I stated in a previous post .. you always tend to make threads , topics about the people ..not about the GSD as is the basis of this forum . Why do you do that ? .. do lack of confidence in who you are and what you do ? Are you insecure .. .. Tells me about your character and integrity ........instead of trying to help/educate/explain to people , a for a good number of people  you have insulted on this board .. you instead try to belittle them . A secure , confident knowldgeable person with an iota of class would not conduct himself as such . Wow .. if you treat other humans as such .. Lord knows how you would treat an animal .. And i would tell anyone with assurity : how one treats another human is exactly how you would treat a dog .. and .. vice a vresa. this is a very proven deeply seated phenomenon . simalarily as i have trained with the best in the world .. I have also been under the wing of the best of the best ..  so they taught me well too !Unless you think you are  WISE  GUY .. then you can look me up .. i will show you what a real wise guy and good fellow is all about.     but before you attermpt that .. you have my permissiopn to start pissing your pants.i won't write on this board what would have happened if you even thought of mouthing off to any of us on the streetsd i lived on . mind your manners .

Juno-- the reason why he was owrse in the out is because of his outlook to the one he is biting on the sleeve  or even a n object like itself . i cannot se you or him .. but given what you have wrote it is similar to what i have seen as i have traine dand taught others . some dogs don't out because haven been toiaght incorrectly what they have really learned is that they should be concearned about ther one holding the object or sleeve ..  this is why i state it is best to teach in the realm of what the dog is thinking and feeling . how can i liken it : two young boys fighting .. the less strong finally gets a hold of the stronger older brother in a headlock .. So.. will he let go ? will he .. not if he feels or thinks .. "if i let go i lose and will get my but kicked" . so what is the response? to hold harder and  harder ! so i teach a dog it is in his bettement to AUS .. ther is no conflict ..no reason for conearns .. So what does this mean to you ? they KEY : we can change the outlook , feelings and thoughtsa of the dog ... so if the dog wants to out and decides to out ... we never have to force  or dmean / or oreder , or physically make the dog to out ? hope this helps juno -- BTW i have sen many [people train fro 20 + years in canine sports.. they don't still get it ! don't be hard on yourself .. we all started at step 1 and we all made plenty of errors on ther way ..it is what we do about them in life .. that is what will matter .. to make ourselves and our dogs better

Alpha

You are a self-absorbed piece of ----.    You are the only person on this messageboard that I have ever really conflicted with.  Piss my pants?  I wouldn't piss on your teeth if your gums were on fire!  Why would I be scared of a guy behind a computer?  I have given my home phone # several times on this messageboard.  If you are serious, and I mean really serious, call me and maybe we can meet up some time.

As to the claim of going off topic and relating everything to people, don't make me laugh.  THE THREAD IS "BACKYARD SCHUTZHUND"!  I gave the guy some advise on Sch.  I didn't mention anything about people, only training.  You, on the other hand, come on every thread and talk about how ring/psa/etc. is so much better than Sch, so much tougher than Sch, So much more real than Sch.  GET OVER IT ALREADY!

What I find funny, is the fact that you have impressed yourself with the area you LIVED on.  I don't know where you used to live, but how do you know the person you are addressing doesn't currently live in Detroit or an area of the sort.  Seems to me you should find out who your running your mouth to.  Acting like a tough guy on a computer is prettty rediculous.   

I dont think it is very brave to act tough on a computer.  I think the only reason you do this is because you lack the knowledge to debate dog training.  Everytime somebody disagrees with you, you take on this tough guy attitude and change the subject.  Go take Psych 101 before you try to psychoanalyze somebody. 

If you want my address,  let me know and I will give it to you.  you can also look up my phone # on this messageboard.  Just don't call after 10pm eastern.  I would be more than happy to help you out. 

Thank you all for your comments and advise, and also I aplogize for starting a thread that brought out so much emotion. I have learned a lot on both issues.