Titles - Have they Proven themselves when needed? - Page 2

What other system of evaluation are you going to substitute for Sch, when it comes to breeding?  Yes it started as a test and now is more of a sport, but honestly, I don't see what the argument is when you don't have anything to replace it with.  Are we to all quit the sport and let our dogs sit on the couch because a dog earned a title and he wouldn't protect his owner?  I have said this numerous times, but a large number of the people in Sch aren't out there to train the dog for personal protection.  They have no need for a dog to protect.  They are into the sport for numerous reasons other than having a PP dog.  If they wanted a PPdog, they wouldn't waste their time on Sch obedience and tracking.  It is alot easier to train a dog in obedience without focus and protection would be a bit different too.  You sure as heel wouldn't teach blinds.

I am very close to someone who has been in Schutzhund for over 40 years.  He trains in a  completely different manner than many modern trainers do.  He does not use an e collar, he does not train in prey drive either.  It is pressure/praise...with so much praise it makes you feel a little goofy the first few times you do it.  Atleast I did.  The thought on training in protection is to have a dog that will protect...not prey driven. Now not all dogs can pass this sort of training.  The dog must be strong nerved, clear in the head, and must be stable.  If the dog does not have these traits he will crack under the pressure, regardless of how much praise you give.  People often talk of the great strong dogs of yersteryears, well these dogs that were influencial in the breed were good strong civil dogs.  That were clear in the head and could function under pressure.  That is the GSD that everyone wants, isnt it?  I think so.  If that is true why do we  fool ourselves into thinking we can train a dog to be something its not.  Well that is impossible.  You can only bring out what the dog has...thats all! I have seen dozens of dogs come through schutzhund that were 100% prey dogs, they could never pass the training that my friend often refers to.  WIth prey training you can get almost all dogs to pass, but they will not protect you when the shit hits the fan.  A dog should be trained in protection to protect the handler not run off after a sleeve.  When a dog is true in the protection work and clear in the head and stable he will be able to get the top points, it will just take more training, more work.  If more people could be honest and just accept that their dog is not "the next world champion, or that the dog is not even a good schutzhund dog, but hey its still my dog and I love him I just wont breed with it," the GSD would be well on its way to being what it once was.  If Schutzhund was designed for all dogs to pass it would not be an evaluation  test for breeding, think about it.

Shawn

And what about the dogs who can't pass the Schutzhund test? Please don't breed them, and call them "not a point dog".  If a dog doesn't have the control  to out,  or the courage to attack from 100 feet away, or the ability to handle stress and do three phases in one day, etc....., they are not breedworthy. Of course it could be training, but you could be fooling yourself as well. Schutzhund is all we have as a breed test, it's not perfect, but there is nothing to replace it, short of actual patrol dogs, some of who are awesome and some of who are not. Titles and bloodlines are not a perfect way to judge a dog's character or breedworthiness but is there anything better?

Don, I think the dog did exactly right, she used good sense concerning the appropriate thing to do in that particular situation.  She gave a response that stopped the threat, and in fact intimidated the attacker by backing her up against the wall. 

Consider this...if had she attacked and bitten, would she have shown that she was a great protection dog, or that she lacked a clear head and good sense?  In personal protection, does every threatening situation require a bite, if a threating bark and an attitude of willingness to take an attacker on will suffice?  I don't currently train in PP, though I would love to do so. 

BTW, one of the dog's grandparents competited in the WPO. :-)

Veronica

Depends on how you trian the dog ! -- this is related to a simiala point of another thread - Is Sch a sport - was the thread !-- i tried to get the point across " it dpends on how the dog is trained and o or the intent  & attitude. "! simply ...is it just a game/routine /the sleeve an  object/ helper a playmate --or is the aggression from the dog directed exactly to the helper with the intent to do damge ! -- ..is the helper a playing partner with the sleeve , or is the helper a real threat that the dog must take him out with or without a sleeve ? .. some Sch3 dogs ARE outstanding and i do not care from whence the line originates ... but some Sch 3 dogs  just do not have what it takes to take out a foe in a true adversarial situation .[ the stress level is not there ] . . now if you relate a Sch dog to Personal protection .. that throws even more dimensions onto the protection work .. now you are talking aboutfor instance a dog to recognize a weapon hand and go to it[ that is just one added dimension ]!

We've debated this a few times but the one thing I wanted to know how you explain is how is it that someone with no knowledge about SCH can go buy a pup they strictly intend to have as a pet and then after a year or so this dog who's never been trained to protect or bite turns out to be the type of dog that would nail you for sure if you entered his home unannounced?  Do we assume this is "genetics"?  Do we assume the dog reacts this way out of fear?  Or do we say "well, I don't REALLY know if the dog would have bitten, but he/she sure looked serious enough that I'd bet it would have?" 

I've spoken to many people who were honest enough to say "my dog is a SCH 3 or whatever it may be, and if you came in my house unannoucned the dog would not do anything".  So IMO I think the titles help give recognition to the dogs level of training, because as someone else said in this earlier post, there are SCH 3 dogs out there that you could not trust to put in a home with a family.

I think the bottom line is we all have different things we look for in determining what is a nice dog to us.  People have different purposes for their dogs, some sport, some for their jobs (police or SAR), some for real PP situations and then others that just want a well trained, behaved pet to enjoy.  I compare SCH to the Olympics in a way- the best athletes gets the medals.  Some get silver, some get bronze and then some get the gold.  Just like SCH, the best athlete gets the titles.  It's a sport that you train for like any other regardless of what level you are involved in.  Some athletes that compete have better trainers than others; hence they may not actually score to their highest ability where the other guy who has the better trainer may get more points because of the training behind them, not necessarily that they were the better athlete so to speak.

an opinion -- i think that if there are dogs that have Sch 3 and you cannot place them in a family home -- that is a huypocrisy about having the title - Sch was and is structured to be a character test -- the first , even at the BH , from my background and understanding .. the GSD is forenost to prove itself social .. non aggresive to a non-threatening human , to the qualifying SV judge , and to a passing by other canine ! If this is not so then the Sch title should vever be given -- or if the rules or requirements have changed i would appreciate for someone to inform me and correct my mindset -thanks

It depends on the dog and his/her temperament so it is not a question that can be answered as cut and dried. I have a Sch3 male who never had one days training in straight protection but he is one of the best I have ever owned for protection and yes he would answer any challenge put forth. I also have had schutzhund dogs that worked mostly in prey and when the sleeve is removed you had better not count on them to protect you. This question is trying to some how say a dog when titled would not be a good protection if this is what I am hearing this is not always true you must look at the dog itself and not its training.  I am a breeder who breeds a little harder than some kennels and I have very few dogs male or females that would not do protection work.on a real level. The defense drives and fight drives are the last to show in a young dog and some never develop at all just the prey drive this I agree on  but do not think that just because a dog has been titled he or she will not protect .

Marlene

sueincc,
I cannot get anything on that address. Only " web page cannot be found" with a list of things to try, which I have done. Any help would be appreciated. If it was from this message board can I find it by going back in time on old threads ?  Thanks for any help, I am a slow one on the computer.

Duh, I just figured it out. I thought I had to type the address in at the top. I just punched on the site and walla, it came up. I have missed alot of these, I said I was slow on the computor.