Hip dysplasia - Page 2

I'm very sorry Sue-Ann, but only the HD-1 dog is a canine hip dysplasia-free dog.

HD-2 - doggies DO have dysplasia. The lightest form, I must admit, but STILL HD. Unmistakable signs can be seen on the x-rays.

The hips are: "fast normal" = "ALMOST" normal. But almost is NOT normal.

What's in a name: "passing hipscores". What do they pass? HD-2 and HD-3... did NOT pass the check for "normal" (=healthy) hips. The hips show failures, as minor as they might be. If you want to diminish the frequency of CHD within the breed, you must not let them pass the test and ban them from breeding. Sorry! Only motivation to stick to lower quality dogs must be money. I cannot think of any other reason to leave dogs with bad hips in the genepool.

The most current OFA statistics are on their site.

 http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

The GSD is ranked #40 behind other breeds where there were not nearly as many xrayed. The best comparison would be to the Rottweiler with about 3,000 less dogs xrayed.  That breed is ranked #29 ahead of the GSD. The GSD elbow statistics are basically the same as  hips percentage wise.  Of all GSD's xrayed, approximately 20 % do not have normal hips and/or elbows. Cannot tell from the OFA reports how many dogs have both bad hips and elbows, but that information is available on that site if you have the time to surf for it.

I'd like to see a farther breakdown of the GSD stats. American lines, German Showlines, Working lines, combinations. I'm pretty sure the American line show breeders do not get as much HD as those who are breeding from showlines with NZ and fast normal hips. It looks like most of the AKC people only use OFA goods and excellent and fairs sparingly and not to other fairs. I see a number of showline pedigrees that reflect NZ x NZ breedings, some for 2, 3 consecutive generations. I myself would not expect to be able to reduce the percentage of HD by doing that. I don't know why an NZ would receive an OFA fair, maybe that's not as  uncommon as we are lead to believe. That would be another interesting statistic - to compare SV rating to OFA's using real time statistics, not someone's personal opinion interpretation. 

As much as I disagree with Jantie on  most other topics, I think he is spot on as far as not being able to reduce the percentage of dysplastic dogs by using NZ's, fast normals and not paying a lot more attention to the number of dogs in each litter, the number xrayed and the results of those xrays. When you make a breeding, you are not just breeding to one specific male or female, you are breeding to their entire family for 3, 4, 5  generations so it is necessary to learn as much as you can about the  hips of the siblings, parents, g-parents and their sibs's hip status. I do not know if some substitute dogs for the SV evaluations, I'm sure they do for OFA xrays, so here again we are at the crossroads of integrity and greed. The indiviudal breeder has to decided which road to take, the high road or the low one.

Having said all of this, I 'm not sure those of you who are breeding for the all around dog, one that can really earn Sch and/or HGH titles, etc and also have great conformation can afford to put hip status first on the breeding priority list.  It must alwasy be at the top, but I can see that some would put certain other traits ahead of hips. Happy breeding...............

Jantie,

Have you ever done a-stamp and OFA on the same dog?  What about watched a noch zugel dog enter senior years? A German a-stamp of a-fast normal or noch zugel, doesn't get a fail through OFA.  The same xrays or copies if you will, submitted to OFA do get a pass from OFA as well.  a-normal, a-fast normal and noch zugel are NOT DISPLASTIC dogs.  The differences between the ratings either with OFA, or Germany's system are quite subjective...a matter of opinion.  The differences between displasia and not displasia are quite clear.  It would make you feel much better to submit a bad hip to Germany for an a-stamp and see for yourself that it will get a fail there as well.  They do not take a dog with displasia and just give it a lower passing score.

I think there is a translation error in your thinking?  I believe what the English word normal or not normal cannot be taken as an exact translation from the a-stamp system. 

In breeding, the smartest plan is to evaluate not only the individual dog's hip status, but also littermates, aunts, uncles, grandparents, great grandparetns, etc.  The bloodlines consistantly producing good and fair hips is far better breeding option vs the excellent dog with a sibling or worse, progeny with bad hips.  It's a very big picture that needs to be evaluated.  We all know the excellent dogs who produce bad hips.  In my mind a kennel producing less than the breed average for HD is a kennel to learn from...even if they are using goods and fairs to do it.

Years ago I had two bitches from the same litter get fails on all 4 joints...both dogs.  A 3rd littermate was OFA excellent.  I passed on taking her as a replacement.  I bet someone somewhere is breeding her though.  What appears on paper is a small view of what may be lurking.

Sue-Ann

Sue-Ann, I am confused. I've been told and read that an NZ is a mildly to moderately dysplastic dog that would probably not get an OFA number; a fast normal a mildy dysplastic dog, maybe borderline that might  be eligible for an OFA fair. Do you think only some NZ's and fast normals would get an OFA rating or most?  I sure wish that OFA and the SV would put their heads together and come up with similar ratings. I realize it's hard to generalize about something as subjective as evaluating hip xrays and there will always be exceptions.  I understand and agree with the way you think about HD.

Is there any other dogs in this dogs pedigree? How are the others rated? My dogs have Quantum lines and I have never had a problem.

When I've submitted to both OFA and the SV, dogs who got passing score in one got passing score in the other as well.  My NZ bitch at age 1 got OFA fair after several years and a few litters.  Traditionally I do a-stamps at one year, OFA at age 2 (my boys get both a-stamps and OFAs)and then redo OFAs if the dog needds to be under anesthesia after that ie: spay/neuter.  Any dog that has gotten an a-stamp, has 100% of the time also gotten a passing score from OFA.  This is my personal experience with my own dogs.

I understand from one of my German friends that the a-stamp program uses a specific angle as a guide in giving hip scores.  I guess in this case if it didn't correlate exactly to OFA's sytem that thei may be differences?  In my mind I better trust a system used specifically for GSDs vs an all breed system.  GSD hips are very different from most breeds.  Angles of the ball to acetabulum are very different. 

A dog with subluxation of boney changes is just simply not going to get a pass with the a-stamp.  Of course there is potential for mistakes.  I've witnessed a BIG one from OFA.  A young bitch from a breeder in FL was clearly displastic.  My vet agreed.  I agreed.  When I got the OFA report which said OFA good I called Dr Keller (brilliant) at OFA for his opinion...moderate displasia.  Of course I placed the dog into a pet home.  Was trying to get something on paper to give to the breeder.  So much for that idea.  If OFA has ratings excellent, good, fair, borderline, mild, moderate, severe, the actual rating was off 5 spots from where it should have been.  I still have the dog's name, OFA number and contact info for Dr Keller if anyone is curious to verify.  These were not questionable hips, they were plain as day displastic

Here is an x-ray of my female. This was taken a few weeks ago and she is 4 1/2. I want to hear some opinions on this and after I see some comments I will explain why I put this up.

Hard to see but the left hip (right side of pic) looks to have severe hd....

These look to me to be poorly positioned xrays that would be rejected from both OFA and the a-stamp program.  The dog is tilted on it's side.  This is evidenced because the pelvis is not centered and straight.  Even though the positioning is poor, I do not see evidence of displasia.  I am not a radiologist, and defer to their expertise.

You may be right sue-ann...I was trying to see if that's what made the left hip appear to be rounded or flat. It does appear the left hip is higher than the right side.