Working lines: Longer lived and healthier? - Page 2

well said Marlene :)

i like to compare my dogs to humans.  most of the dogs i know i like better than their "owners".

i dont like to get into the differences of what one person calls "work",,, after all, I am a blue collar sheet metal worker, who works all summer without a.c.  ,,not to say i work more than a hotel maid cleaning rooms,, just a different type of work.

i train my dogs in schutzhund, i keep them fit by doing road work (running) and taking them to the lake to swim.  we have club members with other breeds, and we do train them for other things.  Anyone ever title a GSD in Irondog?  Just some of the other things we do.

To me a working dog is one that has a job.  No I dont mean keeping the carpet from running away, or chasing the mailman for 30 seconds.  But something that the dog is involved in or trained in on a daily (at least every other day) basis. As far as a herding dog producing schutzhund dogs, its been done, that has more to do with genetics, tempernment, and how biddable the dog is.  Junk yard dog,,,what else can he do?  most dogs can be taught to bark at people.

drfno, i like the fact that you seperate structure and conformation,,, too many people dont know the differnence.  the only example i can come up with (yes humans) would be body builders.  just because they have muscle and tone, does not mean they have any ability to use it except for showing it off.  how many body builders with all their muscle could go and wrestle, or play football, or any other athletic sport?

just some more food for thought,

john

<Cheering Loudly for Pia!>      Well said! I couldn't agree with you more!!!!!

Thanks all for the intelligent comments. Food, excerise and genes - just like with humans play a fair hand in a dogs health and longevity.

Of all the responses Getrude's I feel comes closest to what I am looking for. I'm very interested in hearing from veterans who have been in the breed a good 15, 20 or more years who are in a position to name the number of dogs they've had, lowest age of death vs the highest age of death, and the nunber of dogs that reached various ages in between, plus any chronic illness that kept popping up in different dogs. Very rough cursery statistics. A true study would trace kennels and lines and compare these death and health records in detail - It would be nice if someone became interested enough to go down that path.

Side note: This is not a working line's vs show lines thread, I'm more interested in finding if the average life span and health status of the WL GSD is higher than the entire breed average.

Wow!  I feel sorry for you guys.  My dog told me he was 79 years old.  Must be tough to lose a dog at 12. 

"My dog told me he was 79 years old"

Two questions Don: Is your dog named "Harvey"? and your last name wouldn't happen to be "Berkowitz" would it?

Gertrude - thank-you for sharing your thoughts and relaying that quote . Oh my goodness . i would .. argue that fact ...with Herr Messler ! even if he be the next SV president for 10 years ! For the record .. i have had VA progeny for over the last twenty years so I mean no offense nor is it my intention to belittle the showline GSD . . BUT if anyone understands the showline world and the showline GSD  it is a given that the structure is geared to a flying trott . that does not mean to follow  that particular structure is best for protection and perhaps other working aspects .  the GSD is to be considered the most and best versatile working dog out of all breeds in the entire world [ you can debate that fact with me too, i also owned malinios  ]. the best trotter does not corrspond to mean  the fastest , the most agile , the best jumper. etc etc. . if one  studioes , as i have the gsd from bone to bone , muscle to muscle . ligament to ligament , the connections and angulations .. you wpould also come to the conclusion the flying trott is just as it is .  this is not all encopmassing . .. do you se the GSD as fast as a grey hound? can it be as agile as a malinois? .. so that particular "showline Structure"  does not transalte into all types of work the GDSD is called pon to perfrom . show structure also says nothing to me about intrinsic innate traits. given the GSD [as with most herding breeds] are a problem solving , thinking canine. In order to "work" the GSD  must be able think and have the stress level to perform the task . structure and physiology go hand in hand, which in turn go right back to the genetics. lasly .. i cannot say from much experience about the working lines . i am sure they have thier health issues .. but i cannot tell you the number if ill-health GSDs that i have come across [ and from the VA lines] in the last twenty years. . the categories of illnesses  from heart , to digerstive , to auto immune , to skin , to anal , to pancreatic , bone , to spinal myelopathy .. well all that i can say it is statistacally staggering.  Almost to the point ..that is  almost .. i would say if you have a healthy show line GSD count your blessings .for the record .. there are entities that do much rersearch on these areas now because of the high prevelence . for example there is a reasearch grup following congenital hearty defects and another group following the genetics of spinal myelopathy . franlky ..Herr Messler .. i wouldn't brag about the heatht of the GSD, especailly the show lines.

This proposition would be very difficult to prove, as the environmental factors would muddy the waters tremendously.  You would need a large amount of data to try to test for a statistically significant difference.  My guess would be that there is too much "noise" in the data to make a decisive conclusion.

Does anyone know of any scientific studies on this matter?

I'm not sure I go along with most of your post, but the last paragraph - about "what IS a WORKING dog" was perfect.

I appreciate that at least dogs having to actively peform are, to some extent, "working" dogs in the sense they are moving and doing something someone decided represents work.  Certainly more than "show" dogs.

But true working dogs, to me, are in the English-language definition sense - they're actually doing a job, not just playing at it at a SHOW.  MIL dogs, police dogs, dogs herding sheep for real shepherds, blind guides, and even pointed guardians of property, are real working dogs.

I wonder why a dog in AKC Obedience can't be called a "working dog"?  ;-)  After all, they're doing something active that requires attention to handler - which the German SchH also must do - and it's at a show.

I believe it is mostly genetics. There are working lines that live a long time, and there are showlines that live a long time. I think that this is something that is not considered at all by breeders.

I also cry BS on food. I worked at boarding kennels here and there as day jobs a lot, and the old dogs all eat alpo, or old roy. I never see an old dog on any of the "top" brands, 'cept Purina. I think they might be way to "hot" for a dogs system. By "old" I mean 14+

Back in the 80's we just started to see dogs with allergies and that sort of stuff crop up. This was also about the time that the hotter foods started to show up. What do you guys think???