Genetics Question - Page 2

So how can you tell if a sable dog carries the black reccessive gene just by looking at it?

I have experienced a few matings with combinations of sables, blacks and black and tans. What I have found was sable dogs that produce solid blacks all carried 'Pencil markings'. And those sable who never produced a single solid black didn't have these pencil marks. So what exactly are pencil marks? These are black lines found on the toes just above the nails on all the feet. With my experience I noticed all sables with these markings do carry the black reccessive gene and have produced blacks with partners who carry the black reccessive gene.

VBK9...Can you tell us if your dog has pencil marks. I'm pretty sure she doesn't.

BLACK is not a color trait that will improve pigmentation...Actually it is so recesessive that the founder was only able to bring about this color after excessive inbreedings... He was trying to perfect the Working dogs' appearance culminating with a solid BLACK with SHORT coat which is Roland Starkenburg... but to think of it ... A young DARK Sable GSD (although "sable" already means dark in Germany)  who was among the best of Horands' litter already made Sieger (Hector Swaben) .  What I can say is a True solid Black (phenotype and carrier) will appear as short coat and will be with dark grey skin (probably why you may see Tar Toe skin  as opposed to regular grey or brown skin... The solid black looks bad if the underlying skin is light colored and like I said... the original solid black had short coat like a Malinois... Plus the solid black recessive gene is also the source of WHITES and albinism... The sable was meant to improve pigmentation for the black pigment because it reverses the changing of color from black to tan (Tan being overlayed by Black termed as Sable overlaying) as opposed to tan with black markings on the head and mask (like Mals) and Black with Tan markings( regular  Black and tans) ... Only and only if one of the parents is sable can you produce a Sable dog (even if the ancestors are full of Sables...) A dark tan (brown) that turns into dark sable that's a plus because you have plenty of Black plus a rich mohagany base hair... STILL the SOLID BLACK is just RECESSIVE genes that may have white if in excess...

Trini - you are correct the pencil marks on the toes of a sable, are indicators - of black OR bicolor recessive.  I used to think they meant black recessive, until I had a dark red sable stud dog whose toes carried the pencil marks - never did he produce a black pup, but he did produce bicolors with females who didn't carry bi - so that changed that theory a slight bit - black OR bicolor gene for the sable toe marking indicator.

molly

Trini,

My bitch does have pencil marks, but only on the two middle toes front and rear, she also has tar heals.

We've produced solid black pups out of 3 richly pigmented traditional blk/red 100% West German conformation bitches(2 being imports) with NO black or working lines in the pedigree 12+ generations back when bred with a black stud. No feet markings, nothing except results from using a black stud-one had a litter of 3 and 2 out of the 3 were BLACK! Talk about cool!

That's interesting about the toe marks.  I never heard that before and you just taught me something new.  It made me go out to look at my dogs toes and to my surprise he had the black markings on every one that explains why his last litter produced very dark sables like him and all but 1 were bi colors.  The only one out of 7 was more on the redish side (sable). 

So if you wanted to try to get an ALL black litter is the only way to get that by breeding a black Dam to a black Sire or does that still not guarantee an all black litter of pups?

It still does NOT guarantee an all black litter! 
A friend of mine has a working lines certified bomb detection female(German import)-she's a borderline bicolor(she's blk/red but has quite a bit of black on her, but her color comes up most of her legs, and she has very interesting facial markings. She's not mostly solid black with just a hint of color like alot of bicolors.
She was produced out of 2 V-rated SchH titled BLACK parents-they're here on the database but no pic for her dam is available-but I know from seeing the German SV pedigree for my friend's dog they're both black.

So no, even if you pair up 2 blacks, you might get sables OR blk/red/bicolors! 

If you found a stud who was proven to throw his black particularly strong and breed him to a black female, THEN I'd say your chances would be pretty high. But nothing is a an absolute guarantee. 

Breeding two black dogs will always produce a litter of 100% black puppies. It's not genetically possible to get anything else. In order to be black, the puppy has to get a black gene from each parent. Therefore, the dog can't carry any other color gene.

I would check the DNA on any puppies not black, produced from two black parents.  Either one of the parents was actually not black (very dark bicolor perhaps) or someone jumped the fence.  Not possible to get anything but black from two black parents.  Black is recessive to every other color - so if one parent carried a sable and black he would BE a sable dog.  If one carried a black/tan and black he would BE black/tan.  Black dogs have only two genes to pass to puppies - black and black.

molly

Crash,

You nailed it on the head.  Breed two blacks - get black pups.  If both sire and dam and true blacks, then they have nothing to bring to the genetic table except the black recessive gene.

By the way, on the DDR Legends web site there's a very cool genetic color map that shows what are the statistical outcomes of breeding dogs with different coat colors - sable, B&T, Bi, and black.  Surf to the site and you'll find it, or I might be able to post it. 

The only "absolutes" in coat color are the homozygous sable - all pups will be sable because it's the dominant gene if one of the parents is homo, and the black recessive - all pups black if both parents black. 

Statistics can only give you the probability of coat outcome.  My pup's sire and dam are both black sable carrying the black recessive.  Statistically, only 25% of the litter should have been black, and the rest sable.  However, only 3 sables out of 8 were born - the rest black. The likelihood is low, but still possible.

On the other hand, do you remember the thread about that bogus kennel Jollie K9?  They claimed that breeding their B&T female to a black male (Master vom Piere - aka Blacky von Neuen Lande - HA!) would produce 100% solid black puppies.  They posted pictures of the mother with 10 black puppies.  Assuming the female carried the black recessive (possible even though she didn't have the pencil marks or tar heels) the statistical probability of 10 black pups is 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/200 = 0.5%

Possible, but highly unlikely.  Looks like litter loading to me.

Yvette