Muzzle/Smock training for defense drive - Page 2

Hundguy,

Thanks for the post.  Enjoyed your website as well.  Clear that fight drive is not equal to defense drive.  But would you ever put dog in defensive posture to get a more pronounced fight response.  If so would muzzle be your choice or an option.

I should have been a little more clear on the original post.  I am very interested to learn more about where the more experienced trainers choose to use muzzle to enhance training.  I have trained and owned both prey driven (aka ball happy) dogs and also own a DDR male (10 yrs old) that never really looked at the helper as a toy but as a competitor to duke it out with......(for the record, solid nerves, no backing up, etc) and it was easy to say yes this dog can handle it and will be a better protection dog for it.

Do you use this with any of your Schutzhund dogs or do you limit this to LE, NAPD/PSA type of work?

My current male I dare not go there.. He really would have been perfect for K-9,  I work hard at keeping him sporty and clear headed during the fight.. The last thing I want is for him to realize how much fun the bite suit or muzzle fighting is!!

But if I needed to try and develope more drive & fight towards the helper I might go to the muzzle. If I were to switch a dog over from sport to K-9 I am sure at some point I would use some muzzle fighting.. Remember this is not for most people or inexperienced helpers...

Agition brings out defense drive.  for example "flanking" a dog with low defense will increase it's defense level and make it leary and suspuecious of strangers. Basically the dog learns to fear that anyone could cause him harm and his defense level increases. this is used alot for training guard dogs.

DR and HG,

Thanks for the comments.  Agree this has both limited and specific applications and not a Pandora's box to be opened by the inexperienced.  I find your opinions valuable.  I enjoy the debates on "drives" as much as the next guy, I prefer to discuss the training...or more specifically...the appropriate training/development for a specific training outcome.

Thanks again.

OK, lets look at this from a different point of view, which of course seems to be mine. LOL

QUOTE: Muzzle work is not necessarily used to get a more pronounced defensive response. It is used to highten it's aggression, socially.

I see the muzzle as frustrating a dog without having to restrain him. Weak dogs get a bit better with muzzle work if done carefully, but I have never seen it cause a dog that did not have social aggression to begin with to suddenly or ever have it.

Quote:  But put a muzzle on the dog and let him take the helper to the group and fight... Nothing like being punched in the face by a muzzle... This builds fight drive!!

I am going to assume that you meant to say ground and not group. The same thing can be accomplished without the muzzle. As far as fight drive, I have seen more dogs abused by inexperienced helpers hoping to GOD in heaven above for a glimpse of this non existant drive. By most peoples definition, strong prey drive is what they are looking at. There is no mixing of drives, and after all the years I have worked dogs, I have never seen a dog in more than one drive at once. Sorry, fight drive=fallacy. Any arguement I have heard on the subject sounds like prestons fearless dog arguement.........BS

Quote: Thanks for the post.  Enjoyed your website as well.  Clear that fight drive is not equal to defense drive.  But would you ever put dog in defensive posture to get a more pronounced fight response. 

OK, this is scary, so you want me to corner fluffy, and try and make him something he is not. Bottom line, dogs are what they are, and you can get them a tiny bit better than they are, and you can train to cover the holes they have in their temperament, but no amount of training is going to make an average dog more than an average dog. If you have a strong dog, you will quickly find out that you do not need to go through coniptions to get him to be scary in the bitework.

Quote: The last thing I want is for him to realize how much fun the bite suit or muzzle fighting is!!

Here we go. Control is control period. With a proper foundation, dogs do what they are trained to do. If your dog has issues with control, it is a training problem. Doing muzzlework, or suit work is not going to take your dog over the edge.

Here is some scary thought processes. Keep in mind that I am not personally bashing here.

Quote:  Agition brings out defense drive.  for example "flanking" a dog with low defense will increase it's defense level and make it leary and suspuecious of strangers. Basically the dog learns to fear that anyone could cause him harm and his defense level increases. this is used alot for training guard dogs.

If you need to flank a dog to get him to aggitate, what are the odds this dog is going to be worth two shits for PP??? Wanna see a dog run????  Here is some different terminology that you could use to describe this dog so that you do not confuse me. "low defense" perhaps you mean a high threshold for defense??? Or more likely, since the dog has his back to you, otherwise no flanking, "AVOIDANCE"

I like to use the terms "cull"  "junk" and "trash" to describe a dog that I have to cause pain to to get them to work. LOL

Thank you for the opportunity to reply.

The malinois in the video is from Sweden,  was actually awarded policedog of the year for that incident. Muzzlework is something that is big part of the Swedish protectionprogram, as it is for many policedogs.

But I think all this words, fightdrive,defence, serious,prey are often confusing things, because many have different views on these words it seems. Fightdrive as described by hundguy could just as easily be a dog with a strong defencedrive, that have the willingnes and ability to stand and fight if the threat comes to close, but many here seems to interpret defence only as passive aggression, a dog that will run if pressed to much, all defence is not about fear and dogs that are on the verge to run. A courageous dog with both figthtingdrive and defence that is balanced in his drives will not be slow to attack, I think this is more accurate for dogs who lacks courage or may have been trained wrong, so they are to serius and thinks to much and evaluating their opponent to much, as opposed to a dog that is very selfconfident in his work.

Some defence and aggression is wanted in practical work, because dogs that are only biting a suit out of prey without any real meaning behind it is only playing really, what will happen to such a dog if it gets hurt or seriously pressed if it has no aggression? The bad guy won´t probably not fell any difference between dog that bite out of a serious defencive attitude, and a dog that bites because of the joy of the fight with a wagging tail, but I assume that the dog with a serious side are easier to train to effective handleproetcion and maybe more suited for practical work, even if peole have diiferent taste when it comes what type of mentaliy they want in a PP or policedog.

Thanks again for the comments so far......any other opinions out there?

Jef and jennie-- you both elude to something that i have bee talking bout fofr years > the word .. and those stuck inthier ways will arue this .. oh well . but the word drive is inadequate and obsolete !! many talk about the same thing but the meaning is different. hence a lot of confiusion pending one's base ansd backgroung . therefore i talk in behaviors in canines the are ellicted by thoughts /Motivations/ deisres/Emotions and feelings ! In terms of seeing these in a dog we can then best describe beahvior and I have found with the people I train and thier dogs much confusion is eliiminated. with to many schools of thought there is confusion .. I agree a dog canot be in two drives as one previuos person posted . I won't dcebate why but I will ask you to think in repect to that knwing what a dog thinkds and feels etc. Similarly a dog can be taught to Defend using it's past experiences /contexts  and manipulating / conditioning the GSD to not be fearful with the result of having enough confidence to take someone on[ e.g it has never felt defeat and had been empowered] . so in that case .. if a dog defends you .. does it need to be fearul/ fear.. or in actuality if it pewrcieved somrething and decidesx to be proactive .. do you call that fear ? I won't say drive . but rhetorically .. if a dog has an out of a situation ..[ a clear /sound dog]  it would be stupid and foolish to engage. Even bruce Lee aclknowledges . The best way to win a foight ... Don't fight ...and the best way to deal with a puch .. don't be there when it gets there .. so ..perhaps a GSD that can defend[ i didn'y say be defensive ] i state "to defend" .. that takes confidence.. perhaps just the oposite of fear / defense driveas you say based in fear , things to are much clearer using simple English to [ vs. drives] to describe behavior .. eliminates confusion

AZSHEP6, 
Great topic, but it gets tough for me to stay up with the different definitions of drives. Funny thing, I don't remember this many drives years ago.  My goal in agitation was always to bring out fight, not fear.If I brought out fear it indicated I went too far with this particular dog, and had to spend some time to build the dog up . Pain was only used to enhance the dogs fight drive if infact the dog had it in him. I only resorted to fear by polling the dog in order to teach the dog to come out and that he was the bad one, not me.The only other coment left out here in this thread is sharpness. I am referring to a healthy sharpness, not fear motivated, but a dog that simply desires to work and looks for the opportunity to work. He doesn't need any coaxing, just minor stimulation or comand to do so. I just called them trigger happy and this is good as long as they were #1 under control of the handler, # 2 that the dog understood who the potential bad guys were, ie not children. JMO

OLS,

Thanks for the input.  To repeat an earlier question, would you utilize this training for "sport dogs"....(I know I am about to potentially open a can of worms here)....such as dogs only intended for Schutzhund training or would you limit this to dogs that were intended for patrol/ street work.  Why or why not?