Differences in training for sport and real life... - Page 2

realcold, good to hear from you!!!

Had to get a beer after that one. Gotta remember what I preach at you Spook.

Let me put in my 2 cents,,, who's full of shit?  LOL you know, why do alot of people think that all schutzhund trainers train the same way? some like civil dogs and train that way, some like more prey, if everyone knew what they were talking about they would know that alot of german k9 trainers start there dogs off on sch tracks just remember in schutzhund it is all about the points, so of course schutzhund dogs are trained more, or should be :-) I have had a few of my  schutzhund dogs work civil, heck I had a bitch that I showed 2 times on the world team, knock a person out doing muzzle work, right spook101?

Just MY 2 cents worth from a SAR perspective: I handle (and trained) 1 live find disaster dog and a now certified cadaver dog (21 months old).

The time to train these two is exhausting. They are very high drive and there just is not enough hours in the day to work in another disipline. I used to compete in SChutzhund and miss it.

Our urban disaster dogs are required to behave when flying in the cabin of commercial aircraft,, going up and down esclators etc. yes we train in all sorts of situations.

Not every dog is suited or police work as not every dog can be a sar dog. I had a very experienced Schutzhund trainer tell me his best Schutzhund dog could not work the hours of a disaster/wilderness sar dog. Each dog as each person has talents..some more than others. So I do not think it is a matter of training, but the individual dog.

What schdecoy said is true. He has had a number of dogs that could work on the street or in sport. He had a couple of males that were so bad they scared the crap out of helpers. The bitch he's refering to beat a helper up so bad one day the guy start crying that he wasn't working her anymore. Presently he has a young male who last night tried to rip my face off when I was working in civil with him. As a matter of fact we have a number of dogs in the club that could easily go either way; it's the nature of a well bred GSD.

Realcold

I take offense to your post and think you are full of shit!  LOL.  Don't lump me in there and put "all of you" when you took my thread and ran with it.  Do you know how many dogs change hands?  The Better trainers out there go through more dogs than anyone.  The reason is because they know what they are looking for and what they don't want.  Novice trainers usually have little clue as to what they want.  They stick it out with a mediocre dog and get mediocre scores.  Mike Diehl gets a boatload of rejects every year.  Hell, Basco was owned by someone and they will be competing at the WUSV. 

Not lumping anyone Don. The thread was definately going down the toilet by people who have never tried the work that brings civil out. Dogs started civil can easily make the crossover if their genetics had it in the first place. You can count on a competetive dog started civilly to go out and start a fight at the end of his career. Many of the prey started and worked dogs have short careers and have huge blocks for civil work as they don't like this game. Spook, we also have several that could scare the crap out of people on any field or street. It is about nurturing the well bred as you alluded. Too bad so many clubs are afraid to work both drives. It can be a huge cost learning but the benefits for the breed are huge also. Have to go and find a lower pulpit now as it hurts too much when I fall from this one.

Training for actual patrol work is far more demanding than pure sport work.  I like to see clubs bringing some reality into SchH but this is certainly not consistent from club to club, and quite frankly some sport dogs are not capable of civil aggression, nor are some sport handlers capable of taking a dog to that level either.

As I've stated in other posts, Schutzhund is a great sport and breeding screening tool, but sport titles are not proof that a dog is capable of patrol work.  Granted, it should not be a surprise that K9 trainers start their puppies using similar techniques that are used on sport dogs.  You can't bring "reality" to an 8 week puppy, but you can encourage it to chase a rag.  Even with tracking, the footstep tracking that is used in sport work is a good foundation for a young dog.

Other than the basics, police work is at a whole different level that sport work.  SchH is a choreographed routine, with every SchH protection routine following the same basic exercises.  It has to be this way, that all dogs follow the same pattern, so that the judge can fairly evaluate one dog to the next.  On the other hand, a K9 on the street will likely never seen the same situation twice.  A patrol dog will also never see a decoy wearing a big jute sleeve and cracking a whip either.

A sport dog could attain high scores in SchH without ever having to set foot on a slippery floor, or work at night, or in a building, or face a screaming lunatic with no equipment, or endure any real pain.  Do you think crooks carry around soft leather padded sticks to defend themselves with?  Anyone who can train a working K9 has my utmost respect - that's kickin' it up a notch!

Yvette

Yvette, you may be training at the wrong club. Most dogs at a K-9 level are not near as well trained as a well trained Schutzhund dog. Very few K-9 units have the expertise they claim. Most police departments assign training directors through seniority or political appaointment. Experience is not usually a factor.

Spook101 is right.  The first guy/gal in line with seniority has the choice to take the appointment of K9.  This person's only experience with a dog may be the family trained golden retriever.  He takes the job and gets to go to a 8 wk class on how to handle a k9.  At this point the dog has way more training experience.