Please show me your WL gaiting! - Page 19

I have seen thousands of working dogs over the years, both sport and actual working, I would surmise that probably less than 5% of them had the correct fore assembly as demonstrated by Ibrahim. I have never seen one that with good temperament and drives were unable to perform their function or after thirty minutes or even hours were not able to complete functional duties BECAUSE of the fore assembly. That is one of the biggest myths in the breed, IMO, along with the theory that the over the top extremely angulated dogs are correct for herding sheep all day. Both of these theories look good on paper, sound good to novices, but do not transfer to real life whatsoever. 

Not trying to be contrarian, but if people were to see real herding dogs from past and present, they would be disappointed in looking to find that " flying gait" you see so often in American show ring, and now to large degree GSL. These dogs are moderate in all physical aspects, by and large, and balance of of fore assembly and middle piece and rears are far more important to performance than any other aspect. 

 

Thank you Ibrahim!! That was AWESOME!!! Really good stuff!!!

 

And......Gustav....EXCELLENT points!!!! 

The exagerated flying trot is an "invention" of modern dog breeders mainly based on the need for an extreme dog in the AKC and SV show rings. Dog show judges and breeding for show wins has changed many breeds over the years, not only the GSD. 

Tending dogs do in fact need to have good shoulder layback for a number of reasons that can easily be learned by reading Elliot's book, "Dog Steps". If you want a dog that can climb an A frame, chase down the bad guy, be a podium dog, a man stopper, then the shoulder layback isn't too important. However, if you're looking for a GSD that can tend 100+ sheep 24/7 in all weather without human intervention, then you are going to want a dog with good shoulder layback and matching rear angulation. The reasons for that are clearly stated in Dog Steps and other canine movement book and articles.  You willl never see a seasoned musher using a straight shouldered dog in the Iditarod where endurance is everything.

Straight shoulders = inefficient gait = less endurance = dead tending dog.

 

 

thanks Ibrahim for your posts and everyone else contributing :)

I've been reading critiques lately and trying to follow and properly understand the structure of the GSD as I'd like to possibly breed one day and with simple diagrams like that it makes a lot easier.

also bookmarked for future reference lol

The show dogs have been bred for extreme angulation to perform extreme trot, and look what happened.
My dogs are not extreme by any stretch of the colored lines, and they move without hidderence.

Blitzen, I disagree with the gsd needing all that angulation to tend sheep, or to herd. The more angulation of the joints, the more stress is put on ligaments, tendons, muscles (all soft tissue) and ultimately causes breakdown.

Not extreme angulation, but not straight either. Extreme angulation is a product of showline breeders (AKC and SV) to attain an exagerated flying trot. EVERY GSD moves with some degree of a flying trot as does most every dog barring any physical limitations.

http://siriusdog.com/anatomy-working-canine-dog-shoulder.htm

 

 

 

From Lantings article on shoulders in the GSD.

I agree with Blitzen, what she says is correct in my opinion. It is important for us to realize that whether a show or a work, all dogs are DOGS no matter how good or bad the angulation is or how much natural agression it has or does not have within. Breeds were developed by human for certain uses, like for example retrieving breeds, hunting breeds and so on. German Shepherd was developed as a herding dog, a herding dog needs to be built for endurance as it works for long hours, it should be smart and easy to train. A herding dog has natural traits that come along like protectivenes and watching. Standard was written for endurance and versatlity not for show neither for sport/police/army, it was not written for speed either.

As time went by show ring became a big business, on same steps became dog sport. Most breeders followed trends whether show or sport. Then slowly both sides got ruled by extremists.

On the other hand, breeding a strong temperament/ versatile dog and at same time correct structure is a very difficult job as variables become big and hard to set and maintain. Breeding for either is much easier, breed for a dog that can bite and bark or breed for a dog that has beautiful color and angulation, obviously much easier than breeding and selecting for all and everything.

In my opinion both types of breeders who breed solely for show ring and breeders who breed solely for sport did bad to the BREED. Diminishing the endurance structure for temperament or vise versa is wrong and incorrect. In GSD breed both structure as well as temperament are detrimental and only both together make a GSD.

There are show breeders who breed for moderate correct structure and also for temperament and versatility and their dogs are used in various types of jobs successfully, same way there are working line breeders who breed for temperament/versatility and moderate correct structure, there are also breeders who use show and work lines in their breeding programs and breed for all and everything a GSD should be, I salute those breeders who did not follow trends but rather followed the standard, they did not take the easy profitable path.

 

Ibrahim

In my opinion both types of breeders who breed solely for show ring and breeders who breed solely for sport did bad to the BREED. Diminishing the endurance structure for temperament or vise versa is wrong and incorrect. In GSD breed both structure as well as temperament are detrimental and only both together make a GSD.

There are show breeders who breed for moderate correct structure and also for temperament and versatility and their dogs are used in various types of jobs successfully, same way there are working line breeders who breed for temperament/versatility and moderate correct structure, there are also breeders who use show and work lines in their breeding programs and breed for all and everything a GSD should be, I salute those breeders who did not follow trends but rather followed the standard, they did not take the easy profitable path.

Excellent observations, Ibrahim.

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and photo's;  there is nothing like photo's to teach what we are trying to achieve.  Also shows breeders how much more homework we have to do to get our structure back on track.  It's going to be a few years ahead before these changes can be accomplished either for show or work.  All the GSD's are working dogs just different pedigrees.  The pic's of Chacco & Branko  are both correct as they are both balanced and I would bet both could do a days work.  Both are beautiful to boot.  A little extra bonus.

 

Thx  Nan