The German Sieger Show 2019 - Page 18

McKenzie,
There is this old expression that says, "You cant serve two masters at once, one will suffer at the other's expense". I believe that sir to be true today of all breeds that have that working/show split occur.

To clarify, although I believe my initial post on the subject makes this clear, I am in no way suggesting that SL dogs because their anatomy is better suited to bite work should be used instead of WL dogs for police, military or prison work. In fact, I suggested that it would be a good idea for WL breeders to take note of the fact and improve the conformation of their breeding stock accordingly.

The videos were not of dogs being jammed. They were of normal bite work with good helpers. The point of the videos was to show the effect of normal impact of bitework on a dogs back and joints and not of dogs being jammed. And what these videos showed was that the current structure of SL dogs was superior from the standpoint of injury and ability to sustain impact. There was no suggestion that therefore they should be used in place of WL dogs. This is a subject I have no interest to become involved with.

However, I would reiterate that the GSD is capable of many occupations not just police or military work. In fact, if I remember correctly, Stephanitz originally only assumed the dog would be a herding dog. It was only when he realized that in late 19th century highly industrialized Germany there were fewer and fewer opportunities for his dog to be used as a herding dog (which of course it still is) that he brought it to the Berlin Police Department to show what it was capable of and the rest is history. As an aside, in WWI the GSD was not used as a military police or prisoner guard dog. It was solely used as a messenger dog and red cross dog and trained under the auspices of Colonel Konrad Most and his assistants.

A respectable performance from V19 Yango.

Mackenzie
If you read my question again you will see that it refers to the future, not today and not to the past.

in fact earlier i did touch this issue in "by the logic of natural evolution to progress the best available must be merged with at least a good, if another best is not available. SL seems like already reached it's dead end. what will you achieve by diluting the best by the worst?"
never heard answer from you, how you see future betterment, if in present SL breeding branch absolutely absent component which could become fundation for that betterment?

Mackenzie
Your comment "if it will make you feel better - even GSDs of today's so call working breeding, very, very rarely produce the dogs, being worthy to look at has a very simple answer. For a period of time the sole aim of the working dog side was focused on the bite work and completely ignored what was required in the Breed Standard.

in 80s i had first time see pictures of SL dogs in W.Germany magazine, being bring by someone  through iron curtain.
was amazed by badly cripple appearance of those dogs.
since then i never changed my opinion in those regard. thus saying "today's so call working breeding, very, very rarely produce the dogs, being worthy to look at" i refer not to their apperance but their performance.

Mackenzie
Please do not try to fool the Readers by trying to say that I am wrong. Even your final comment was about biting. If that is not hijacking by going off the thread then I do not know what is.

sorry if you feel that way. in any case, if that bother you, perhaps you should file complaint to an upper rank of SV officials and ask them to remove bite part from requirement and standard.

Klossbruhe
I have read all of the posts I missed and I noticed a persistent comment from several posters that the structure of SL dogs is either not suitable or gets in the way of protection work. I do not know what these posters are basing this on, but I do not believe it is science.

basing on physical appearance and condition of the dog to be efficient in destined work application. it meant - dog's mental and physical strength, well developed agility in movement and high endurance during the work.
none of mentioned can be found in show lines.

i'm very curious who was financier of that research about dog's back?
SL dogs (unlike WL) quite slow and careful during approach to an object due to their mental state at that moment. in such case odds of harsh physical impact with following possible injury not exist.

V20  1071  Uslan von Bad-Boll 

Seng Teck Yap  Singapore  SG

TSB of males V1-V10 in one video to compare

V11 1070 Kik Crveni Mayestoso
V12 1104 Kingsley vom Elbe-Saale-Winkel
V13 1022 Quax von Carrara
V14 1082 Larry vom Bierstadter Hof
V15 1120 Lars du Val D'Anzin
V16 1093 Tao Marko Carras
V17 1114 Tango vom Klostergarten
V18 1165 Achilleus vom Kapellenberg
V19 1064 Yango aus Agrigento
V20 1071 Uslan von Bad-Boll

Klossbruhe, it made me very sad and disappointed to read that most of the german families, even nowadays, keep their GSD in outside kennels. Even their beloved von Stephanitz, founder of the breed, was totally against kennels saying a kennel affects negatively a GSD both physically and psychologically. This was over 100 years ago and we are disputing the positive/negative evolution of the breed while in their native country most of the GSDs are inprisoned like convicted criminals! I thought one of the jobs a GSD can do was to help catching a criminal, why is any GSD treated like it is a criminal?
And again, I cannot believe that a purebred GSD could turn against and bite his own family, if it was treated correctly, even decades ago! A chained or kenneled or neglected/ abused dog might have and I personally would not blame it for that!

Mackenzie,
There is nothing wrong with the conformation of the working line dogs. It is only due to obsession with a perfect standard. What good is perfect conformation if a dog lacks the confident and ability to defeat a man in a fight?
Klossbruhe,
I did not say the GSD should not be a pet dog. My point was too many are breeding watered down versions of what the breed should be so the dogs can go into inexperienced pet homes that can raise or train a high drive dog with aggression. So you end up with a Gsino (German Shepherd in name only.) The herding lines have been ruined by the influx of the show lines. People in Germany might be using GSDs for herding, but they are not near the caliber of the true herding lines which have disappeared thanks to the SV. One reason the working Malinois has become so desirable as a police and military dog is because the working people don't give a crap about structure. Either the dog can do the work or not. You see male Malinois that range from 50-100 pounds. Some of the best are mutts, like the non FCI KNPV Mal X's who has been outcrossed to other breeds. The show line GSD has become a fancy dog. Schutzhund has led to the working lines being watered down. A confident, aggressive GSD is not a bad dog just because he can't be out at a cookout or family reunion because he might bite a stranger. We need more confident dogs with strong aggression.

V21  1199  Draco v. Roosvec 

Carlos Enrique Rivera Gallardo  Miami,  US

Klossbruhe, I have one question for you as I can’t get anyone to give me a good answer.....there are service dogs, there are seeing-eye dogs, there are SAR dogs, there are single purpose detection dogs( narcotics and explosives) that do not require bitework from the dog. The SL dog is three times more numerous than the WL dogs in numbers. Most SL dogs don’t become show dogs, so there are ample numbers of these dogs to perform these functions. I know for a fact that folks that handle these type NONBITING dogs don’t care from where they get their dogs.
So WHY do you only see WL dogs in these jobs; when by the reasoning projected by some( they can do non police work that doesn’t require bite-work), there should be an abundance of these SL dogs available for these non bite functions. I mean with hundreds of thousands of these dogs you seldom see them in these other venues.....it doesn’t make logical sense if it’s a matter of bitework is the determining factor that you don’t see them in Police work.
Could you explain for me???