The Bottleneck of the Century - Only one bloodline left! - Page 13

I just took another look at the video and IMO that photo doesn't even look like the same dog. I noticed that at NASS. Some of the dogs there didn't look much at all like their official photos.  Not saying there is something dishonest going on BTW.

I have read through this thread three times and enjoyed it more each time. A lot of you made excellent points and observations.

I agree with a lot of the "study", yes, we are losing diversity in the breed. When diversity is lessened, additional attributes and traits of the breed are lost as well. 

I see very few show line dogs (very few defined as less than 20, that I know of) who actually can work. Now, the question remains, as touched upon above, are these few dogs able to work because of genetics or because of the training? I can say without a doubt, in regard to my own dogs, that yes, the genetics are there. HOWEVER, if I didn't put in all the time, effort, to train, my dogs would probably have the same exact types of "performance tests" as we have witnessed of late.

I am often told by a wise person, that I have got to understand that NOT EVERY show line person cares about the work portion of the breed. A very true statement, but one that I find so very damaging to the breed, as a WHOLE!! Breeders need to wake up, and look past the monetary value we have placed on the dogs. Take a look at what has happened with other working breeds that are valued more for their looks than for the important jobs they have been designed for.

It is time for breeders and fanciers to take a long hard look at the current dogs and honestly decide if the studs being chosen are chosen because of their floating trot, or because they have the working ability? For too long we have seen dogs over used in breeding programs where the only attribute the dog has to offer is looks. The statement FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION, is often over used, but it is TRUE!!! Too often dogs of good working ability are overlooked because they lack the V or VA in front of their name. The same can be said for the bitches we look to.

The decades old "war" between show and working lines has to end. The first step in this, as I see it ,is two fold. Clubs need to recognize that there are show line dogs with ability and if an owner is willing to put forth the effort to train that dog, then help that person and promote that desire. I cannot accept that the majority of clubs "refuse" to accept a dog because it is a show line. Yes, those of us with show lines have to work several times harder to get what we want from our dogs. If we are willing to do that, then the clubs should be willing to promote that. We also have to develop thicker skins. Accept that not everyone likes a show dog, but GET OUT THERE and PROVE to the nay sayers that there are good show lines and that there are breeders TRYING to make breedings where correct temperament, stability and working drives are present. Show folks have got to understand that foundation cannot be rushed, and it is the MOST important step you will take with your dog. Enough pushing a dog through foundation so that you can breed the dog.

Maybe if we stop lowering the bar, and trying raising it for a change, some of the cream will float to the top!

The breed has been divided between show/work for so long now so why really bother? As long as the showbreeders put a certain look before an athletic robust dog with a mentality suited for demading work this will not change. To the workinglines the present showlines have nothing to offer, not in character but also not in conformation, due to the fact that the conformation of the typical showdog isn´t suited for hard work. Sure, a few working GSD could be a bit ugly, but most of them look nice in my opionion, and even the ugly ones are better looking compared to the exagerated  showdogs of today I think.

AMEN Deeswolf!!! Bowing in awe!!

Debby

Sunsilver,

Are you trying to make us think that there are no working lines that have dirty bites and some of the exact same control issues and grip issues??? Come ON!!

I observed the video also. My take is that the dog is happy and willing and it is purely a training issue. I LOVE to see the handler and dog having fun and being a happy team together!  I will take a YOUNG dog like this and give it more training before I would take a working line that NEEDS 3 e-collars to make it obey!!!!!!!!!!

Debby

Are you trying to make us think that there are no working lines that have dirty bites and some of the exact same control issues and grip issues??? Come ON!!

Debby, HELL< NO!! Where'd you get that impression? But this is the Sieger show, for pete's sake! This dog already has a Sch 1 and an IPO2. How did it ever obtain those, if it's that lacking in control?

I just don't get it, unless, like you say, the showlines people just don't care about performance!

Jennie, I can well understand your thoughts and opinion. There was a time I was accepting of the division. Then I realized that as long as I was accepting of it, I was promoting it.  For me, personally, I cannot do that. I LOVE the GSD. I love a GSD that can work, be it schutzhund, search & rescue, herding or LE K9. Color is not a determining factor in whether I like the dog or not. Again, Function is more important to me than form.

I believe there are small ways we can begin changing the "mentality" you spoke of. We need to promote the dogs that are making a difference. I don't want to hear about the dog or bitch that was just bestowed a V or VA title. I want to hear about the dog or bitch that stood out on the trial field. There are dogs doing this, that working line folks make mention of. I know there has to be one or two show line dogs in each region that truly works, earns their scores, and would be a definite positive genetic contributor to the breed. Let's start pointing those dogs out.

Yes, there are some badly exaggerated show dogs out there. Dogs, that when I see stacked I cringe. I also see some very nice show dogs with excellent top lines, that when stacked have the look of a working dog. I am fortunate to have a few of those dogs. This is where we can also begin to make some simple steps in changing, start pointing these dogs out.

I can say I learned more about the correct structure of the GSD from working dogs than I ever did from show dogs. Maybe this is why I don't look to the VA dogs when I am looking for a stud. There are not many VA dogs I have seen that I feel the structure is correct.

Maybe there are others out there, that would look to benefit from the knowledge and opinions of working folks who can point out in a positive manner which dogs they see as being closest to the CORRECT standard. I know when I was looking for stud dogs, I spoke to working folks in my region who saw what I didn't in certain dogs.

Bottom  line, the breed as a whole, as well as the owners can only benefit from a united cooperation.  AND, if there are those who aren't interested, fine, but remember there are those of us who want to benefit from the knowledge and opinions of others.

The BZSZ is NOT the BSP!! What would make you think that they are perfectly trained in work? Yes, we have discussed what many of the show breeder's goals are. Guess what...! surprise surprise it's NOT Precision WORK! This dog is just 2.5yrs old! There is nothing in that sequence that would have failed him.  The dog engaged, held on and came back for more. Yup he is slightly out of control but he has the desire to do the work HAPPILY and all he needs is more/better training in my opinion.

Debby

Debbie, I realize that. I don't expect to see a whole precision Schutzhund routine. But I would certainly expect better control from a dog that already has its IPO2!

Debby,

At best it was mediocre, IMO. If a dog is a SchH1 or a SchH2 the dog should already be able to control itself. If some of the owners of these dogs spent HALF the amount of time training for the work, as they do running the dogs around a show ring, many of these dogs would present better.

Punking the sleeve, and pot shots once a dog has outted is not acceptable to me. It doesn't make the dog look more able to work, and doesn't make the dog look stronger. It makes the dog look incorrect. OUT is OUT! A dog who can control the drive, desire, pressure on an out is more impressive.