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by apple on 12 September 2019 - 11:09
Mackenzie,
The only reason they show willingness is because there is zero pressure being put on them and the decoy's behavior is clearly indicating he is playing a game with them.
Valk,
I don't expect them to work because I know they can't. That is my whole point.
Emoryg,
The Martin brothers and others in the SV who chose to take the breed in a poor and different direction are responsible for a decline in the breed because valuable genetics were lost because great working dogs were not bred to because they were not of the type the Martins were promoting. They actually believed the sable dogs were a different type. At that time color had no correlation to working ability. Consider the "B" litter Lierberg, especially Bernd vom Lierberg. He was a VA rated, great working dog and producer of great working dogs, both East and West German. He did produce some cryptorchidism. He only had one VA progeny and Willis says he was not used much for breeding because he lacked a black muzzle. In photos I have seen he appears to have a black muzzle, but maybe Willis meant it was not black enough. This is where you start to see the influence of the Martin brother selecting away from great working dogs that have great structure but minor "imperfections" that were not consistent with the black and red type of dog they were trying to flood the market with. He is just one example of great genetics that are lost forever, and is how the development of the modern show lines have contributed to the decline of the working lines. The other aspect is that as the modern show lines became weaker in temperament and lost their fighting instincts, schutzhund became increasing watered down to accommodate the weaker show line dogs. With schutzhund increasingly becoming a show or sport, it lost its value as a breed suitability test. All the German show line dogs have to have a herding or schutzhund/IPO/IGP title, but a very small minority if any are capable of becoming a working dog so the titles are meaningless.
Centurion,
I'll try to come up with something to debate.
The only reason they show willingness is because there is zero pressure being put on them and the decoy's behavior is clearly indicating he is playing a game with them.
Valk,
I don't expect them to work because I know they can't. That is my whole point.
Emoryg,
The Martin brothers and others in the SV who chose to take the breed in a poor and different direction are responsible for a decline in the breed because valuable genetics were lost because great working dogs were not bred to because they were not of the type the Martins were promoting. They actually believed the sable dogs were a different type. At that time color had no correlation to working ability. Consider the "B" litter Lierberg, especially Bernd vom Lierberg. He was a VA rated, great working dog and producer of great working dogs, both East and West German. He did produce some cryptorchidism. He only had one VA progeny and Willis says he was not used much for breeding because he lacked a black muzzle. In photos I have seen he appears to have a black muzzle, but maybe Willis meant it was not black enough. This is where you start to see the influence of the Martin brother selecting away from great working dogs that have great structure but minor "imperfections" that were not consistent with the black and red type of dog they were trying to flood the market with. He is just one example of great genetics that are lost forever, and is how the development of the modern show lines have contributed to the decline of the working lines. The other aspect is that as the modern show lines became weaker in temperament and lost their fighting instincts, schutzhund became increasing watered down to accommodate the weaker show line dogs. With schutzhund increasingly becoming a show or sport, it lost its value as a breed suitability test. All the German show line dogs have to have a herding or schutzhund/IPO/IGP title, but a very small minority if any are capable of becoming a working dog so the titles are meaningless.
Centurion,
I'll try to come up with something to debate.
by Mackenzie on 12 September 2019 - 12:09
Indeed Quenn was an Entertaining Male but that is all. At four and a half years of age he is not a novice dog and by now should be spot on with his work. His work showed not only a lack of training but also a lack of control. How did he get his IPO 3 rating? He proves my point in my earlier post. No voice control on the out, the handler just grabbed him off. Other handlers did the same with their dogs. Definitely not a VA performance. The SV must take steps to tighten up the qualifications so that the breed can, at least, recover it's reputation if nothing else. The problems are not just with the rules but also in the quality of Judges. Helpers must also play their part because just waving a padded wand at the dogs is not sufficient.
For me he has another set back which is in his bloodline through the father line. Way back in the line is Epilepsy. The disease came through a German Import to the UK during the mid fifties. His name is Ingesohn of Errol and he produced a number of carriers which enabled the bloodline to carry the disease through to at least the 1980's.
Mackenzie
For me he has another set back which is in his bloodline through the father line. Way back in the line is Epilepsy. The disease came through a German Import to the UK during the mid fifties. His name is Ingesohn of Errol and he produced a number of carriers which enabled the bloodline to carry the disease through to at least the 1980's.
Mackenzie
by Irina Kuznetsova on 12 September 2019 - 12:09
VA8 1195 Spencer di Casa Massarelli
Libero Massarelli Acquasparta (TR) I
by apple on 12 September 2019 - 12:09
Quen was totally playing with the decoy. Not a bone of seriousness in him. He kept pawing the sleeve in hopes of the decoy making prey with it so he could bite it.
by apple on 12 September 2019 - 13:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXMHere is a video of long bites at the 2007 WUSV. These are working line sport dogs and I am sure some of them could have been actual working dogs. Notice the level of commitment and the intensity of the helper when he drives them.
by Mackenzie on 12 September 2019 - 13:09
Enthusiastic. Considerably more than the VA dogs on show. However the show dogs are not required to have the intensity of competition dogs. Probably is desired but just needs to produce a performance good enough to be permitted for breeding purpose. The biting exercise is not the sole criteria for selection as a value for breeding purposes.
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by emoryg on 12 September 2019 - 13:09
Apple, thanks for the information. Here all along I thought the decline of today’s working dog had to with the number 300. And I’m not referring to the Spartans or a bowling ball.
by apple on 12 September 2019 - 13:09
Emoryg,
If you are referring to the quest for a perfect score, as I said, it is more about competition than IGP being a breed worthiness test. Actually, I don't think schutzhund was a very good test from the beginning, and I don't von Stephanitz was as driven to develop a working dog as much as he claims due to some of the choices he made to develop the breed. There has always been an element of "beauty" in the breed's development, which is partially why the breed become so popular and popularity of a breed contributes to its decline as a working dog. It won't be long before there is considerable decline in the Malinois. Some would argue it has already occurred in that the breed is too unbalanced and too extreme in prey with a loss of other forms of desirable aggression.
Mackenzie,
The SV and people into the German/European show line GSD just need to be honest and admit that the show line strain is not a working dog. I think people who prefer the working lines are more honest with themselves admitting that some lines are too sporty for real work and that nerve and health issues are too pervasive.
If you are referring to the quest for a perfect score, as I said, it is more about competition than IGP being a breed worthiness test. Actually, I don't think schutzhund was a very good test from the beginning, and I don't von Stephanitz was as driven to develop a working dog as much as he claims due to some of the choices he made to develop the breed. There has always been an element of "beauty" in the breed's development, which is partially why the breed become so popular and popularity of a breed contributes to its decline as a working dog. It won't be long before there is considerable decline in the Malinois. Some would argue it has already occurred in that the breed is too unbalanced and too extreme in prey with a loss of other forms of desirable aggression.
Mackenzie,
The SV and people into the German/European show line GSD just need to be honest and admit that the show line strain is not a working dog. I think people who prefer the working lines are more honest with themselves admitting that some lines are too sporty for real work and that nerve and health issues are too pervasive.
by aaykay on 12 September 2019 - 14:09
Apple: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_9s8KArXMHere is a video of long bites at the 2007 WUSV. These are working line sport dogs and I am sure some of them could have been actual working dogs. Notice the level of commitment and the intensity of the helper when he drives them.
Exactly. Some folks posting seem to repeatedly push the narrative that the low level of performance by the SL dogs (in none of these videos are the helpers really challenging the dogs, and testing their defense sureness......the farce is purely intended to allow the dog to clear this hurdle), is due to lack of training. They are somehow skirting the reality that the SL dogs have had the genetic temperamental abilities of nerve strength, environmental sureness etc bred out of them through several generations of "selective breeding" for the B&R color and the SL flavor-of-the-day structure.
There is only so much of the genetic deficiencies that training - even from the absolute best trainers - can cover up and paper over.
One point that Gustav made earlier was that even in venues where bite-work is never a part of the equation (say seeing eye dogs), the resurgence in the use of the GS that are seen, are exclusively WL GSDs (the sable and other such WL coloration give away their origins !) . Those venues require solid nerves and environmental sureness, and training can only build on what is fundamentally/genetically present.
As some folks mentioned earlier, VA dogs like Bodo/Bernd Lierberg etc (before the SL/WL split, so to say) are present in the lineage of a large number of WL dogs.........for good reason.
I also agree with the premise mentioned earlier, that there is a serious drift among several of the working lines, towards sporting venues......the same type of "selective breeding" problems facing the SL GSDs is going to rear its head within the WLs, with such a single-minded focus towards sport. JMHO.
Exactly. Some folks posting seem to repeatedly push the narrative that the low level of performance by the SL dogs (in none of these videos are the helpers really challenging the dogs, and testing their defense sureness......the farce is purely intended to allow the dog to clear this hurdle), is due to lack of training. They are somehow skirting the reality that the SL dogs have had the genetic temperamental abilities of nerve strength, environmental sureness etc bred out of them through several generations of "selective breeding" for the B&R color and the SL flavor-of-the-day structure.
There is only so much of the genetic deficiencies that training - even from the absolute best trainers - can cover up and paper over.
One point that Gustav made earlier was that even in venues where bite-work is never a part of the equation (say seeing eye dogs), the resurgence in the use of the GS that are seen, are exclusively WL GSDs (the sable and other such WL coloration give away their origins !) . Those venues require solid nerves and environmental sureness, and training can only build on what is fundamentally/genetically present.
As some folks mentioned earlier, VA dogs like Bodo/Bernd Lierberg etc (before the SL/WL split, so to say) are present in the lineage of a large number of WL dogs.........for good reason.
I also agree with the premise mentioned earlier, that there is a serious drift among several of the working lines, towards sporting venues......the same type of "selective breeding" problems facing the SL GSDs is going to rear its head within the WLs, with such a single-minded focus towards sport. JMHO.
by Gustav on 12 September 2019 - 14:09
YEP!
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