Show and Working Lines, 2 separate breeds - Page 10

The dog was imported by a local GSD breeder/importer that we get K9 prosepcts from. They also had a litter available, and I know of an officer that has a bitch, pethaps she was from that litter? It was a few years ago. It did not come trained in narcotics, that was done here.

Officer hunt with the dog?    If not he's missing out....they are a blast

Any busts with the dog?   Has he done any bitework with the dog?

The VDD Breedwarden  tattoos all of their dogs, you cant miss mistaking them for a GWP. 

Thats an interesting story though and nice to hear.

I'll ask, I know my boss keeps copies of the pedigrees of all the GSDs they get for K9, perhaps they have his as well?  I don't know about busts, I can't remember what department they placed him with. Pretty sure no bitework, though, just narcotics. I trained a wire haired pointing griffon, a show prospect from a breeder in Canada, she reminded me of the Drahaar in her drive, what an awesome worker. They closer to a Drahaar than a GWP?

Griffs...Not really.  No where near the drive or Run, Smaller, (inconsistent) coats as in DDs....but a nice foot hunting dog.

Yes, the owner should have a German  Ahnentafel (pedigree)
 

What Department is the dog?  And you, if you dont mind me asking...What other breeds is the department working with?  I know Labs &  Dual Purpose Mals/GSDs are the norm. Nice to see others working..

The issue is that showline breeding no longer CONSISTENTLY produces working dogs in a WORKING breed! Period!

Good point.  But that brings us back again to what is truly a "working" breed?  I totally agree that some (SOME) of the show dogs are awful on the field, but it works both ways.  Those "hard" dogs in Schutzhund - how many of them are true WORKING dogs and can protect you when needed but still play with the children and lie in the farmyard with the chickens and kittens?  I'll agree that some show breeders have gone too far in choosing looks over performance.  It's also true that "working" has come to mean a hard-***ed dog that can't be trusted alone in the house lest it kill the cat.

Ask around at your clubs.  I've heard comments like,

"Do I want to try herding? Are you nuts?  He'd kill the sheep."

"I could never have a cat.  My dog would kill it.  His prey drive is too intense."

And many other similar comments.  These dogs are not WORKING BREED dogs.  They are something else.  But they needed to be that way in order to win.  And winning is what it's all about.  I get tired of all the bashing of show dogs "bred that way just to win in the show ring with no thought for what a TRUE German Shepherd is supposed to be."  Well, one can say EXACTLY the same thing about LOTS of Schutzhund high-performers: they're totally unsuited to do anything else than perform in the Schutzhund sport ritual: they're "bred that way just to win in the Schutzhund ring with no thought for what a TRUE German Shepherd is supposed to be."

Gets back again to ONE standard, ONE breed.  Extremes at either end are wrong.

That's the joy (and agony) of dog breeding: it's a constant pursuit of traits.  You gain something you've striven for only to lose another trait that you need.  It's a never-ending pursuit.  And there are so MANY traits (LOL).  I think that over the years for many it's just been too hard to get everything, so the Schutzhund people concentrated on ball-crazy dogs and good looks went out the window (it might be weedy and ugly as hell, but it will bite anything that moves - like THAT'S a good German Shepherd Dog), and the show people just tried for looks, which got more & more extreme, and working-dog-personality went out the window and the dogs in the show ring look nervous as hell with all the double-handling, they're all nervy, as if THAT was a good German Shepherd Dog.

  It's scary really.   I realize they  (the showline breeder)breed what does well in the show ring, but ultimately they have pups to sell, so the buyer has alot of power to as to what dogs are being bred too.  As do the workingline breeders.  So!  We the buyer must be damn choosey and not support any poor breeders of partially correct GSD's.  Working ability is not enough, nor is looks.  We want both and should demand both!

I don't like this smaller is better crap either that is happening in so many breeds.  I know of alot of large dogs that don't have hip displacia and that are very agile.  I don't want a 20 inch female and a 22 inch male, and people telling me they are better.  Bull shyte.  I like a substantial dog, and I will support those breeders that breed such.  If I wanted a small fire cracker I'd get a Malinois, just so happens I like the GSD!

Tess, Extremes are undesirable I agree, but many people making those comments aren't really knowledgeable about what a dog will do in a herding situation. I take all of my dogs (Czech/West/DDR) to a herding instructor when they get betwwen 10 months and 2 years. I remember thinking my high drive dog that is now a certified PD Patrol dog would eat the sheep up. Wrong...he did grip them forcefully at first but the herding instructor quickly showed him that excessive gripping was no-no and at end of session he was rounding them up and driving them. the instructor told me she hears this all the time from workingline GS owners and they are surprised how quickly the instinct to herd(with a little help from the shepherd) overcomes the drive to just grip and maybe kill. We must be careful of people who talk about what they have not done and don't realize how strong the herding instinct is in a GS. And I don't see why a police or narcotic dog(true working dog) has to play with children and lie in the yard with kittens. Some will and some won't but it doesn't diminish the dogs effectiveness as a police or narcotic dog which is the dogs vocation in that case. Bottom line is you have to talk to PEOPLE who train real working dogs like police/SAR/Military instructors and see what they say about which type of dog do they have the most success with....the marginal passive showline or the over the top drive workingline.....These people really assess working dogs and a lot of other people are weekend sport warriors that really aren't qualified to say what will WORK CONSISTENTLY. I know all showline aren't marginal passive but if your example of a true working showline is the exception than you have made my case. Also, some workingline dogs are too over the top to work successfully as they can't capp their drives and listenwell while in Drive. But this isn't that complicated, observe the next or last 20 working police or military or SAR German Shepherd and tell yourself which one do you see predominantly. And also remember that showlines make up 3/4 of all European GS. Try to explain the reasons of why there are so few examples of the lines that has the most numbers unless there is a problem that is bigger on one side than the other when it comes to working. Lies don't figure and figures don't lie!

There is NO Mandatory Breeding test for GSDs in the US

That is THE Primary Issue, for working dogs and Showline dogs. Their Founder Created a Mandatory Breed Test. Here was a German SchH Test in 1936

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM

Notice the Bite Suits, Scaled Wall Jumps, Gunfire, Real Stick/Whip,  and other test Criteria, Removed with the 'Sport' folks....restoring the Old Test, would eliminate 99% of Showline Dogs.

To add to that further, Schutzhund  Evolved into a SPORT, rather than simply a Breed Test , decades later,  and the Tests for SchH were CHANGED ie Watered down.

This also altered the GSD and the breeders goals, in large part, imo.

I'm gonna have to agree 100% with the last 2 posts.

Mandatory tests are what we are pushing for here in the UK. We have a KC that's less than interested because it may reduce their income, but I think we'll get somewhere this time!