I'm so excited! - Page 2

Wow, Hexe, you are sharp, great observations.
All the best with your puppy Eddy, would love to see pictures!

RS, just a minor correction--there's an 'e' at the end of my user name.  It's 'hexe', not 'Hex'.  Don't want Dobermannman to accuse me of being one of the Govedniks in hiding. ;)  This was 'Hexe'--quite a different dog than Hex--along with her companion, Suess:

Hexe, i do not know this breeder but have heard alot  about them.

i was talking about the breeder in Appleton that has this litter. the guy live somewhere by Appleton.

well, i did not know the  breeder has a few different kennel  names , well thats not good.

no phone  number????????????

i do know he has changed  his kennel name a few years back , i bet they had complaints, also the other female has major allergys and he still breeds her, i know this for sure.

have a look at there past litters there is a breeding that the female  ( the other female) was bred to her dad, i mean what idoit does that, it was the other female. from jerland kennels.

i also know that this breeder tryed to blame the stud dog of a past litter for the pups having worms , what an idiot. i dont think  he knows much about breeding. oh just how to make money and yes his prices are way over price, if you ask me.
 

Red Flags are very high on this breeder-

and Titan Mittelwest, well i would never buy a pup from him , i did see him when he got his VA1 and the fight her started with another male  at  the show , talk about bad temp.  and the judges just turn there heads , so  thats  what i think. do not believe  that this dog should of been VA1.
it was all about who has the most money ..

and i know i am not the only one that seen Titan at the show do this..

if i was looking i would never buy from him.  i know good breeders, sadly there are not very good ones here in wisconsin.

Eddy,well if you are happy with a pup from this breeder great for you, i hope you had the chance to see these pups and the mom. i have not heard anything good about them..

good luck

oh i should also mention that i have not heard  much about Khloe, so not sure if she has any problems. she may not , i just know the other female from Jerland kennels has severe Allergys. and the breeder does not think this is a problem.

i also dont like that this breeder in appleton does not do anything except for hip cert. i feel that all breeders need to prove there breeding stock in some kind of work.  dont you??? 

trixx, as I said about v Rheinland--I'm no fan of 'checkbook' breeders, so yes, I DO think breeding stock should be trialed in SOME sort of working venue, whether it's obedience, agility, Schutzhund, herding, guide dog, SAR dog, law enforcement, flyball--SOMETHING. By the same token, as you yourself pointed out, some titles and awards are bought and paid for as opposed to earned, and since nobody has put me in charge of regulating the dog breeders in the US yet, the best I can do is be glad that this breeder of this litter at least ensures that hip clearances are done for his breeding stock. As for Titan's behavior @ the Siegerschau, yes, I'm aware that he became unruly and showed aggression toward another dog in the ring--some reports indicated he even nailed his handler during that display--but I'm not going to crucify a dog based on his behavior at a single show, especially something like aggression toward another dog. I wasn't there, and even those who were there were unable to actually and accurately read the body language and social signaling of either Titan or the dog he was targeting; the only people who could tell us exactly what took place were the two handlers, and perhaps a few others who were close enough to the dogs to be able to have a clear, unobstructed view of the eyes of both dogs as well as their bodies and facial expressions. I can't judge whether the other dog was giving challenging signals, which can be very subtle if you don't know what you're looking for, or if the other dog was ignoring Titan...it's an incomplete picture without that information. Dog aggression isn't a trait one would want to breed FOR, but by the same token it's also not something that is strictly heritable--a dog that's been jumped by another while young and at a disadvantage may quickly decide he or she is never going to allow that to happen ever again, and voila! another intraspecies reactive dog is created... Should Titan have been awarded the VA despite the display? Probably not at that show; but this wasn't the dog's first show, yet where are the reports of him trying to attack other dogs previously, either during other breed shows or during the trials he had to participate in for his SchH titles? If everyone removed every dog or bitch that showed any aggression toward another dog from the breeding pool, I think you'd find the water getting very, VERY shallow indeed. I've lost count of how many retired stud dogs and brood bitches I've eliminated from consideration for adopting because the owner was honest enough to state that they only did well with dogs of the opposite gender, or in order to be a house dog and companion, they needed to be the sole dog in the household. :( Yet these same dogs DO have wonderful temperaments with people--so does the dog REALLY have a bad temperament, or does it have a manageable flaw in the temperament that may have been created, or may have been there since birth? No, I won't damn a dog for a single episode of aggression toward another dog...nor for nailing his handler in the course of the episode (if that did happen), because we ALL know--or SHOULD KNOW--about redirected aggression, and the risk of a bite when handling a dog that's fighting, or trying to fight, with another dog. Now, if the situation was that he went for another PERSON in the ring, or on the grounds even, that would be a different story entirely...and inexcusable. [Unless that person were wearing a sleeve at the time--then I'd need to know more about the scenario, and might give the dog a pass for that action.]

PS, trixx--I did both a web search and a messageboard search for both kennel names, as well as the breeder's name as it's shown in the litter classifieds, and didn't come up with any complaints. Doesn't mean there weren't any, I know, but they haven't hit the Web so far....

Hexe- i know this stuff about this breeder as a friend of mine had dealings with him, she said he was not right up stairs. and she would never say anything bad about them. ( out on the internet)

well i will say , yes temp can be enviroment or could be gentics, i was there and i can tell you titan took a dirty bite at the back of that dog, they were gaiting in the ring and titan was the first dog and the other dog was the last dog  in line. it does not matter where the dog is at , why should he act like that. Mittelwest have some bad temp dogs , but it could be enviroment, but i will never know.

i did not see him go after the handler, but i did hear about that.

i know if i was looking for a stud dog i would not use a stud that try to go after a dog or person , i would be very picky about temp and i know i would not take the chance.

i was offer a dog  , but he will bite strangers so i turn him down, i just cant take the chance, i know body language and know  how to work with a dog with  most any type of problems, but i have kids and lots of people come here so  will not keep a dog  that has a bad temp.

 

everyone  has there own oppion- thanks mine

yes, i do know that there is not a hugh amount of super temp  dogs out there, but i would never breed to a dog that has temp issues, thats me, i would be very picky about breeding to the standard, which includes  good temp.

"yes, i do know that there is not a hugh amount of super temp  dogs out there, but i would never breed to a dog that has temp issues, thats me, i would be very picky about breeding to the standard, which includes  good temp."

Whoa-whoa-whoa...I never said there was any sort of shortage of dogs with super temperament out there!  But there's a HUGE difference between a dog that shows aggression toward other dogs, and a poor temperament!  When I mentioned the retired dogs and bitches, I wasn't suggesting that these were animals of weak or poor temperament.  The ones that were OK with other dogs of the opposite gender--these tend to be very, very confident animals, very sure of themselves and very conscious of their status within the world...and pairing them up with another dog of the same character AND same gender is likely to create a competitive situation where we, as the owners, would prefer there not be such.  Ditto the ones that need to be an 'only dog' as an unkenneled housedog--we're looking at a breed that bonds very closely to their person, and with that bonding some degree of jealousy and competitiveness is inherent as well...combine this with the confidence that a sound-temperamented GSD is meant to have, and then add in the fact that these dogs, more often than not, are NOT housed in social groups but rather are individually kenneled--and many of them aren't even permitted to engage in any play with other dogs because their handler fears the dog will 'lose focus' and prefer the company of other dogs to the handler...and you've got a wonderful recipe for dogs that don't play well with others. But none of that is evidence of poor temperament!

Remember, this breed was not developed to work in packs, like the hunting dogs, or in teams like the Northern breeds--the focus was them working with their person, or independently as they tended the border of the sheep graze. At most, there would be one other dog working with them--and strange dogs weren't something they were supposed to welcome into the graze, but rather were to be driven off before they harassed the sheep. 

As for what you've described as a 'dirty bite', again, since I wasn't there, I'm not in a position to judge what triggered it.  I can tell you that my rescue dog, who I consider to have a good temperament, will do the same thing to my bitch when they're out in the yard and he's chasing her, and she wheels back around and runs past him--because he can't keep up with her or turn as quickly, and his prey drive becomes overstimulated from the frustration...so he tries to grab her.  They're predators by hard-wiring, after all, and as much as we'd like them to be furry little people, they're never gonna be that. 

I put as high a value on sound temperament as I do on sound structure and health, but to label a dog as have a bad temperament on the basis on ONE situation is extremely premature, and overreaches by miles.  Now tell me that same dog has attacked or attempted to attack other dogs on a number of occasions, in various settings (not just when amped up in a competition), and I'd agree that the character is faulty.  One instance, though? Doesn't qualify as a temperament 'issue' by any definition.

Well, thanks for all your comments, good or bad they are appreciated.  Here's the deal, the baby girl has landed, they all look whole, healthy, and very active.  Either way, blind - crippled- or crazy she's mine now and I will take care of her, love her and never regret one minute that I have her just like the rest of you with your dogs.  I'm still very excited and I will post lot's of pictures, she'll be adorable

Pam