The virtues and weakness of present show lines. - Page 3

Ibrahim, as ever I agree with everything that you posted. Fullers statement about the cost of uniformity in type sums up where the SL is today.

Bomber - what a dog. I think that would be too much of a leap for the SV, though I do think they are attempting to consider bloodlines to widen the genes in the VA's. However, the 'uniformity' in type which has been cast in stone now, along with the politics which drive it, is still going to limit potential future diversity IMO.

TYPE and only type is the reason where we stand this day - never a truer word was spoken IMO. The big question is, how do we change this path while we still have time to regain what has been lost in pursuit of type? I mourn the loss of variety of type that existed back in the 60's, but all still within the standard. At that time there was the opportunity (which was taken at times by the SV) to select a slightly different type to promote to VA, to steer the breed and keep it on track, and correct/adjust body type/working traits where necessary. That option is no longer available, except by outcrossing.  Shri, this has been postulated many times, but I don't believe that the SV have the will or the courage to take that step. The last person in the SV that lobbied for that was sent packing.

Blitzen, thanks I too will look out that site and have a good read.

Ibrahim, Thanks for carrying the ball....a very nice discussion

Gustav,

I can assure you that your posts and those which share your vision to a good extent like Abby's, djc's .... did not go in vain, and they're making difference at least to us the newbie's who are not prejudice, I only wish that I see more posts from you whenever you have the time and the mood.

Ibrahim

Thanks Ibrahim, I still read most of the posts, but sometimes you have to sit back and realize that if your comments are polarizing,(even if grounded in truth), they may well be counterproductive for the greater good. Also, after a period, people's view of your position becomes distorted as their feelings of your statements color their thoughts. I take great satisfaction in seeing people like yourself and others take a balanced and critical look at the breed. Discussions like this are evolving towards where I have been for many many years, but you and others are more patient and thus more effective than I am. I salute you and am content to sit on the sidelines with conformation dogs and see what the future brings. I salute you for your knowledge and your willingness to critically examine things with the hopes of improving them.
Cliff

I do not have European dogs (just so people understand where I'm coming from), but the issues in the lines I currently own and love are:

Lack of nerve
Lack of strong character
Lack of courage/hardness
Overangulation
Loose ligamentation
Weak breed type (have seen MUCH improvement in this in the past coupld of years)
Dogs that are too close coated (not the same as not having profuse coat)

Virtues:
Variety of type
Movement has been cleaned up
Still a good family dog (you need to watch your breeders, regardless of lines)
All colors still readily available
Many of the drives needed to have a good sport dog (agility, obedience, rally, etc) ARE still within these lines....they just need to be brought out of the dog

Xeph, I can only guess that you have AM or CDN showlines? In any case, seeing the majority of these dogs are a horrible example of what a Shepherd should be. Temperament is something that NEEDS to be corrected. They are scared of things unnecessarily, shy away from new people and are just not, IMO, good family dogs. Obviously there are exceptions, but this is what I have seen in recent years.

I have American show lines, and refuse to own dogs that cannot be safe and social with people.  I do not like unsound animals.

I do not disagree that temperament needs work.  I do disagree that they are not good family dogs in general.  I will say it is harder to find homes for some than others. 

I have seen improvements...there was even a dog at the American national that was excused this year for improper temperament...3 were excused the year before...judges ARE doing something about it.  Now the breeders have to start following suit :-/

I know what I will and will not breed.  There is a reason why, after so many years, that I still have not had a litter, much as I want one.  I won't breed dogs sketchy temperaments or poor health.

A big problem is that aside from breeder's ignoring the standard, judges DO make it worse, by not following what's written in the AKC standard.  Dogs that exhibit poor character are to be excused from the ring.  It's right in there...and the judges don't do it.

Dingo the ultimate troting machine - had steep upper arms......Bomber has short pasterns that slope way too much....Every dog has its faults.....and its strengths.

What I find very interesting is that a breeder must decide if he wants to breed for males or for females.......its almost like its 2 different breeds.....

Dingo had less exaggerated angulation, front and rear, than winning show dogs of today but this just illustates how faulty the standard is in asking for 90 degrees in the forehand, and how counter productive inceased rear angulation is.  The further exaggeration in angles that has crept in has not improved gait at all, rather the opposite and this is evident in the high stepping forelegs and sickle hocks so common in the ring now.

@POD.....ya think!!!!!! good observation!!