The virtues and weakness of present show lines. - Page 1

How about starting a thread on 1)The virtues and the weakness in the present Show lines( in relations to anatomy,temperaments  and working abilities) 2)The stud book recommendations from SV for the present show winning dogs and there progeny results(and also those dogs that are not so popular but very good producers).All the information on the SV stud books is in German and not easily accessible may be our German friends or English friends with knowledge of German language can throw some light on this.It would be very informative discussion.

That would be a VERY cool thread to read especially for us new people!!! Hopefully some of the more knowledgable members will share their opinions and observations with us.  Are you just wanting them to discuss the german show lines or the American ones as well?

That's a hell of a broad topic for one thread. How about a more specific discussion, like rear assembly, underline, prey drive...I could go on all day. By picking one attribute we can discuss various examples and which lines are prone to produce which strength/weakness.

Hello VonIsengard,I think that would be great idea to discuss anatomy considerations in one thread.Let us start with the head and fronts.Which are the lines that give very good expression,less soft ear problems,correct bites etc and vice versa.as far as front goes the lines that give correct angulations,good forearm lengths,high withers and Good elbow results.

As far as I know  the "Breed Standard" of the GSD has not changed in the last 30-40 years,


- Why is there such variation of the breed (East German/West German/Czech/American lines) ?

- And why, do judges allow for variations of the Breed Standard?

- And why would anyone want to continue breeding a GSD that does not meet the breed standard?


Kim

The breed standards, FCI and AKC, haven't changed much as far as I know and both are rather vague about most traits. Some things are fairly well defined - size, eye set and color, ear set and size and so forth. Others not so much. In the end which dogs win or lose is still the result of personal interpretation buffered by politics. If we could do a blind study here using 5 dogs asking for critiques, I think we would most likely get a range of interesting responses. 

The big variety in dogs must be the result of selective breeding by humans given every GSD alive today goes back to the same handful of foundation dogs. If GSD's were left alone to procreate on their own, only the strongest would surive. There would be far less GSD's than there are, they would be heathier, more utilitarian still tending flocks of sheep.  No Sch or PP dogs. We've made them into what they are today based on what we think they should be. Never underestimate the power of selective breeding in a species that gives birth to mulitple offspring. It only takes a few generations to screw it all up.
 

Blitzen- the last 2 sentences explain things perfectly.


thanks

Kim

OK, I'll take the plunge and talk about head shape in some showlines, those dogs that look too overdone to me.

Too  much stop, muzzles are too blocky and short. More of an akita or rottie look to me. It's not just cosmetic, for every action there's is a reaction. I've seen this in my original breed. Judges tended to want a heavier head for the group ring. Not sure why, maybe they felt it gave males a more masculine look, I don't know. What we are seeing as a result are - domed skulls AKA apple heads, round eyes set too deeply in their sockets, incorrect ears set, usually too low, overly long soft palates that restrict breathing since the airway is obstructed. Dogs with tongues so long that cannot close their mouths without the tip showing. These dogs sound like freight trains when they are gaited in the ring and endurance is impared in the working dogs.

I think there is good reason to be concerned that these same faults will be seen in GSD's specifically bred for heads like these. It won't take long, maybe 3, 4 generations. It may sound like ovekill, but at one time pugs and bulldogs could breath well too.That was before breeders decided they really looked better with bigger heads and shorter and fatter muzzles. Now they are brachocephalic and some require surgery to trim away the extra tissue so they can walk and breath at the same time. All puppies are delivered with c-sections. Heads on puppies are too big to pass through the birth canal. Not thinking it could go that far with a large breed, but it just goes to show what harm has been done for the sake of a show win. Breeders always need to be aware of what can happen down the road if they get too careless.

Excellent post Blitzen, thanks for sharing your insight.

Ibrahim

I forgot to include bad bites and missing teeth with the things that go with the head changes. Mostly undershot jaws, and missing premolars. Both big no no's in this breed. It seems that the jawbone is too short to accomodate complete dentition, so some of the missing teeth could be there, they just have no room to erupt.