Angulation - Page 1

Hi,

I am new to this site. I am not even sure this is the right place to post this question. I own a German Shepherd that does not have the angulation that most show dogs have and I was just wondering when and why people started breeding GSD with angulation. Thank you.

Welcome to the Pedigree Database! You could post the thread here or on the forum tab labeled 'German Shepherd'. All up to you.

Could you post photos of your pup?

To be honest, alot of the angulation/extra stifle did come around for aesthetic purposes.

Yeah most of the esp extreme angulation was bred in for aesthetics and personal preference it has no "functional" improvement purposes.  It was just the trend of the day.  All breeds that have been around long enough tend to go through a cpl different "trendy" stages, the good ones like ours manage to survive them all somehow.

This is our girl; http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=678904

She has the proper angulation, she is titled ZVV1 and we are currently training her in personal protection and finishing her CKC championship.

Last year at Canada's largest dog Show (Tradex) she placed “Winners Bitch” & “Best of Winners”, the next day she placed "Winners Bitch” & “Best of Opposite Sex” over the current top winning German Shepherd in Canada.

Which all goes back to my comments that a GSD is a GSD, it should be Capable of adequately performing any of the tasks that a GSD was bred for. If it can’t, it should not be bred.

Kim

The flying trot is not possible unless a dog has a lot of angulation on both ends along with a longer body. These dogs move more effiiciently covering the most ground with the least amount of effort.

While we are on this subject, how many, if any “show line” breeders raise their pups as if it were a “working dog”?
 
If you do, why?  
 
If you don’t, why not?
 
I have my reasons for asking and I readily await your answers, thank you
 

Kim
 
ps; thank you, whom made my link readable

The flying trot is not possible unless a dog has a lot of angulation on both ends along with a longer body. These dogs move more effiiciently covering the most ground with the least amount of effort.

Really? Then there was no flying trot in the breed until recent years?

You know, I'd love to see images of what is considered an ideal trot in today's SV-style show ring. The only images I can think of are advertising shots.

I'm disagreeing with Blitzen.  Too much angulation can actually hinder movement so much to make the flying trot impossible.  The trend of today's overangulated showdogs is for trot to be a shuffling, incoordinated four beat gait, and not the two beat one required for suspension.

Many breeds of normal construction are capable of doing the flying trot but sadly it's not so common in the GSD showring today.

Hi Kim, hope you are having a good day. Beautiful dog--if I come visit think I could stick her under my jacket? LOL.
 

To answer your question. I raise every puppy as if it were going to a working home. Reason being is since I have been in dogs, I have always had mostly working lines and it is habit. I have only been breeder of record for 5 litters. I raise pups for my mentor and she likes that I imprint them with bitework and tracking. I think it is important for them to be well rounded. Also because of the type of lines I work with, I think it is important that people know mixing Am SL with working lines does not weaken the working lines, as I have heard. Not that I believe that but I am on a mission to prove Am Sl can work as well as any lines if given the proper intro to things and given the chance.

I would also like to comment on Blitzens post and then add some thoughts of my own. I agree about the flying trot--at first I didn't and had all kinds of dumb reasons why. But I do see the purpose in it. Which sort of ties in with my comment. I have heard many many times about the AmSL and how they are unworthy of doing anything but running around a ring looking pretty. Well in a small specialty or all breed or UKC show this may be true because of the size of the rings. But if you go to something like the National Speciality which is held in a place that has a ring the size of a rodeo arena you will take your words back. Those dogs and handlers have to be in tip top condition to go around and around the ring. Sure after they initially come out the judge makes groups, but when it is toward the end, they go round and round and it wears ya out just watching. Personally when I am picking a dog I really like, my first thought is could that dog herd all day? A lot of people poo poo that but our breed was bred first and foremost for herding and if I don't think one could herd all day then I move along. Just my everylasting opinion!!!!

Sorry, I should have said the exagerated flying trot wanted in the show ring today is not possible without a lot of angulation and a longer body. The bigger the side gait, the more ground covered, thus a more efficient gait. When the angulation gets to be too exagerated, then we get into a whole new set of movement problems, but the flying trot still prevails.

I'm disagreeing with Pod. It's pretty much a given in the AKC world that ALL dogs, even bulldogs and bassetts, move with some version of the flying trot where all 4 feet leave the ground at the same time. Are we talking about the same thing here? Anyone who has been in dogs for 20, 25 years will be able to remember when we were taught by the experts like McDowell Lyons that  the GSD was unique in that it was the only breed that could suspend in that manner. With the use of videos and stop-action photography, we now know that every 4-legged dog moves that way unless some physical infirmity prevents it. One would be very hard pressed to find a GSD that did not suspend when moved out.

Movement coming and going has suffered the most. Most judges don't even look at that in this breed and many other breeds anymore. Side gait is all there is. We know what and who influences most selections of SL breeding stock- which dogs are likely to produce progeny that will suceeded in the show ring and the judges set that standard. It's not about performance although we like to think it is. First we pick the best looking dog likely to produce more of the same and then we think about performance. I'm sure there are some who reverse that decison making process, but most don't.

Of course GSD's moved with a flying trot before the trend of over angulation became so popular. In today's show world, AKC and SV alike, judges want more and more reach and drive, the bigger the side gait the better. More side gait can only be achieved by increasing the angles, lengthing the body and eventually the legs become shorter to accomodate those changes. Doesn't that sound like the changes we see in the breed today and aren't the German dogs becoming more and more like the American dogs in profile and in side gait? The only differences are those of type, specifically head style and toplines. No dog would ever finish in the AKC rign with a banana back and no dog will ever Va at the Sieger in the foerseeable future wthout one. German dogs have evolved into what some like to call "frogs" because most don't have the flat toplines or flat croups that allow them to stand normally. Otherwise Am lines and German lines are quickly becoming  clones of one another.

There are any number of side gait photos in the net used to demonstrate a great side gait, the flying trot. Not sure why some are used since they really aren't representive of a balanced, sound side gait, but that's a topic for another thread I guess. Of course the classic GSD side gait video is that of Dingo by today's standards a rather "straight" dog. Go figure...............