Can I ask A stupid question...w/o being crucified? - Page 1

      Why are so many here against crossing working lines with showlines? What could be the horrible outcome of such breedings?
     I have seen some very nice dogs that are crossed, some that excel in police work , sch., etc. isn't the point of "any" mating to produce the best German Shepherds possible?
     It may take a while to get what you want out of any "breeding program", and isn't that really what we should have, is a planned program, NOT just a litter here and a litter there with no thoughts of "what's next" for our dogs.
     Some say that BYB's exploit the work of the kennel who produced the Seigers in their pedigrees, but isn't that the purpose of establishing a Great Kennel Name, so others WANT them bloodlines to pass on.
     Shouldn't we all want the best of the best?
     Just a thought, I'd really like to know Why this should not be done, And WHO has any credible evidence that incorporating the two lines is a bad thing.dogs
     Where has it been done, and where has it worked out to the detriment of any particular litter or dog?

kitkat, I do not think today is the day for " w/o being crucified"

Well, to me the problem is that most total outcrosses produce well for the first generation...but after that, not so good. You no longer have the specific things each line was bred for, you just have a free-for-all of every available trait. You really CAN'T plan a program like that because, like labradoodles, they need to be re-crossed every time, or succeeding generations suck.  

Vom Marischal what would be wrong with taking the first gen results which worked out well back into either their sire's or dam's side to tighten up on the traits you are looking for?

I'm not against it. I think that it can be done well and, in general, improves the breed overall if any of the dogs go on to be later bred. In fact, there are more than a few very good working or show dogs who have a "cross" a few generations back.

It's also important to know that you're not likely to get world-level competitors in either show OR work from such a breeding. So, if you're breeding to win top prizes in the highly competive national-level show or working arenas, then this type of breeding isn't necessarily going to move you toward that goal in that litter. That doesn't mean the dogs in that litter are scrubs, however--far from it! They should be good "middle of the line" dogs--with some being better than others (as in any breeding).

But I also think that just because it is a working-show cross doesn't mean you want to breed a dog that isn't a "breeding quality" dog--male and female should have good pedigrees with positive traits to contribute to the puppies. If you're putting a substandard bitch to a substandard male--no matter the lines--you're not likely to get above average puppies.

Christine

My girl is a cross of working and showline!  I've never had German Shepherd before so I have nothing to compare her to.
But in my opinion she is beautiful and is FULL of piss and vinegar!  She is extremely protective, very smart and we are just starting to "work" with her so time will tell on that, but her brother is currently in Germany getting titled up to Sch3.  She has a good pedigree on both sides.  I don't see anything wrong with adding a little more drive to showline and a little more "beauty"  to workingline, but like it's been said before you would have to see the outcome of a few generations.  She is what I wanted a showline look with that extra punch.

You are assuming that "show line" = "beautiful".  Not so to many of the working dog folks.  When a dog needs to work all day, be it herding/tending, or detection work (like exposives detection where they work A LOT) a dog can't walk on its hocks. And because advanced training takes a couple years, you don't want a dog which becomes weak in the rear at 5 or 6 years of age.  A dog needs to be "medium" as the standard calls for, not "extreme".


Sadly, the breed has become so divided that those who want to win shows are not going to worry about temperament as long as they have enough to squeek by, and working dog folks aren't going to be concerned with adding a "banana back" to their sport/working dogs.

Each time a breeder chooses dogs for breeding they must make a very clear choice: where are these pups being bred for? The home? The show ring? The sport field/work?  There are breeders in just about show/work split breeds who try and produce "dual" dogs; gawd love 'em.  The goal is worthy.  Many end up producing dogs which don't do really well in either area, but there are some who succeed and to them is due much respect for keeping "correct type" and "working ability" balanced. 

people generally don't cross them because the showline can water down the working dog qualities,  and the working line can make the showline undesirable for show (more moderate conformation)

at least thats what I've always been told.  myself,  I prefer a nice combined pedigree. 

you can get the best of both worlds,  but it takes a knowledgeable breeder and some luck to successfully cross them,  and then you have just as much work trying to find homes for them.  cause working people generally don't care for the showline,  and the show people really won't be interested in the working cross.  most breedings like this (unless the breeder keeps some), most of the pups go to pet type homes.

Kirschental kennel, Von Arlett, and several other TOP european kennels have combined the lines with alot of success.

Rockenrolla, that is pretty much what I did with my current litter, but it was two different working lines. Bella is the result of an outcross with a part-Czech dog, Brix. I did get a couple of improvements out of it, which I was very pleased with (size, femininity in the girls, better angulation). However, I then went back and bred Bella with a dog that has nearly an identical pedigree with Bella's grandmother. In my opinion, after the outcross, you do have to go back to one side or the other rather than breeding an outcross to an outcross. MY OPINION ONLY. I do not want to produce hundreds of dogs in many generations in order to find a few great dogs. Some do, but my breeding is much more occasional and small-scale. I guess if you have a farm, a kennel license, and forty years, you could do it, but that's not me. So I stick with what I know: Yoschy lines. I KNOW what my animals' health and temperaments are like; I'm not interested in acquiring a bunch of unknown problems just so I can have a black and red dog with a conformation rating. I won't give up the type I love.