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by Prager on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Recently I have seen trend to put e collars on a K9s in every day life while on duty.
What do you think about this?
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
What do you think about this?
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by LAVK-9 on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
The dog training facility I worked at that trained police K-9s that was never even a thought.I still don't think that the head trainer would ever alow it.
by TessJ10 on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
IMHO I'm thinking that there are probably lots of K-9 handlers who do not come from "dog" backgrounds and are not really superb handlers, and it's thought that the e-collars assist them (and the dogs) in training and control.
I'll leave it to any actual police officers on here to say if wearing such a collar on duty is helpful, harmful, or no effect.
I'll leave it to any actual police officers on here to say if wearing such a collar on duty is helpful, harmful, or no effect.
by Slamdunc on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Hey Hans,
There are several advantages to using an E collar for police dogs.
1: unlike prong collars or choke collars it is the only collar that cannot be used against a K9 by a suspect in a physical confrontation. A prong can be used as well as a choke collar to strangle a dog or try to inflict pain on a K9 in a fight.
2: It provides control at a distance and our PD has found that helps reduce liability. If a K9 is sent after a fleeing bad guy and an innocent citizen steps between the dog and the bad guy the dog may target the citizen. For those that don't work a K9, please don't think that a down command will work in every situation reliably 110% of the time when the dog is a distance away and extremely agitated and stimulated. Even if I never need to use the collar for a recall or call off if the bad guy gives up, I can articulate that I have a means of control in place off lead. My dog is extremely well trained, but things happen and I would rather have a back up plan in place.
3: I use it tactically with the beep or buzz feature. I can buzz the collar to get my dogs attention in a building or in the dark and recall him by the collar or by hand signal. There are times when I don't want to give verbal commands because it is not tactical or safe. I can down my dog and move to a position of cover while my dog focuses on a bad guy, now there are two of us at different locations. I can point and send my dog or engage with lethal force if needed and my dog is not in the way. If I want to move again and bring the dog to me, I buzz the collar give a hand signal and my dog immediately returns to my side in a heel position. If I am kneeling or lying prone the dog downs on my left side, in the heel position. he will actually down with his head on my knee. I can easily reach down and grab his collar if needed with my left hand as I know exactly where he is.
4: I use a special E collar strap with a rubber strip built in and it makes all the difference in comfort for the dog and performance.
5: black color is not as visible at night as a prong might be and is quiet, no rattling or clinging like a choke.
JMO,
Jim
Jim
There are several advantages to using an E collar for police dogs.
1: unlike prong collars or choke collars it is the only collar that cannot be used against a K9 by a suspect in a physical confrontation. A prong can be used as well as a choke collar to strangle a dog or try to inflict pain on a K9 in a fight.
2: It provides control at a distance and our PD has found that helps reduce liability. If a K9 is sent after a fleeing bad guy and an innocent citizen steps between the dog and the bad guy the dog may target the citizen. For those that don't work a K9, please don't think that a down command will work in every situation reliably 110% of the time when the dog is a distance away and extremely agitated and stimulated. Even if I never need to use the collar for a recall or call off if the bad guy gives up, I can articulate that I have a means of control in place off lead. My dog is extremely well trained, but things happen and I would rather have a back up plan in place.
3: I use it tactically with the beep or buzz feature. I can buzz the collar to get my dogs attention in a building or in the dark and recall him by the collar or by hand signal. There are times when I don't want to give verbal commands because it is not tactical or safe. I can down my dog and move to a position of cover while my dog focuses on a bad guy, now there are two of us at different locations. I can point and send my dog or engage with lethal force if needed and my dog is not in the way. If I want to move again and bring the dog to me, I buzz the collar give a hand signal and my dog immediately returns to my side in a heel position. If I am kneeling or lying prone the dog downs on my left side, in the heel position. he will actually down with his head on my knee. I can easily reach down and grab his collar if needed with my left hand as I know exactly where he is.
4: I use a special E collar strap with a rubber strip built in and it makes all the difference in comfort for the dog and performance.
5: black color is not as visible at night as a prong might be and is quiet, no rattling or clinging like a choke.
JMO,
Jim
Jim
by yoshy on 29 January 2010 - 20:01
Slam (another guy on here) and I were talking about this very topic not to long ago.
He was giving me some reasoning that made sense. One I liked in particular.
Such as a remote recal using the pager function when conducting building searches, etc.....
Therefore not having to give away his position while the dog is working remotely.
and a few other nifty little things most people wouldnt think of.
I would think it would also be nice to have the fail safe as even with highly trained dogs
there is still room for error. If a correction is warrented/needed you maintain the ability to
do so in any circumstance as well.
As well as training is all the time. not just on the practice field. We also cant always recreate
all scenarios.If the dog is allowed to make the mistakes while on duty, how long does it take
before it becomes an issue?
edit: sorry bud you got it in while i was typing.
He was giving me some reasoning that made sense. One I liked in particular.
Such as a remote recal using the pager function when conducting building searches, etc.....
Therefore not having to give away his position while the dog is working remotely.
and a few other nifty little things most people wouldnt think of.
I would think it would also be nice to have the fail safe as even with highly trained dogs
there is still room for error. If a correction is warrented/needed you maintain the ability to
do so in any circumstance as well.
As well as training is all the time. not just on the practice field. We also cant always recreate
all scenarios.If the dog is allowed to make the mistakes while on duty, how long does it take
before it becomes an issue?
edit: sorry bud you got it in while i was typing.
by Slamdunc on 29 January 2010 - 21:01
Lav K9,
Many old school police trainers do not like E collars. I have gone round and round about the benefits with some of these old timers. Some people are resistant to change or to even look at new methods for dog training. I'm sure he would never use a clicker and do clicker training. Used properly it is a great tool. We went through this is a different thread. To each their own. It is a very sophisticated piece of training equipment when used properly. It also takes much more skill and training to master and understand the nuances than a prong or choke collar.
JMO,
Jim
Many old school police trainers do not like E collars. I have gone round and round about the benefits with some of these old timers. Some people are resistant to change or to even look at new methods for dog training. I'm sure he would never use a clicker and do clicker training. Used properly it is a great tool. We went through this is a different thread. To each their own. It is a very sophisticated piece of training equipment when used properly. It also takes much more skill and training to master and understand the nuances than a prong or choke collar.
JMO,
Jim
by LAVK-9 on 29 January 2010 - 22:01
You're right Jim they are old school as in taught by a man that used dogs in the WWs.I don't think they had ecollars back then.lol Third paragraph down talks about the one that they were trained by.Willy Necker.From the looks of it even in the pic they only had choke chains. Aparently the way he trained there was no need for e collar.No we never used clickers either.I have with the woman of the service dog training org only cause she is limited in mobility and that is what works for her.It isn't my thing though.
http://warandgame.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/war-dogs-wwii/
http://warandgame.wordpress.com/2009/02/26/war-dogs-wwii/
by Prager on 29 January 2010 - 22:01
Added later:
Let me add here one thing to alleviate any potential confusion in what I have written below. I have never seen any abuse of e collars by L.E.
Well I must be the old style trainer. I do not look at e-collar as another training method. I look at things not as optimistically as some here, but more from worst point scenario perspective. My main problem is this. Yes these collars may be great tool, but I have seen them used by civilians improperly and even abused more then I care to think of, that is more often than not. A lot of K9 handlers are not of Jim's caliber and often are novices in dog handling. It requires great knowledge and discipline to use them properly and not to abuse them intentionally or unintentionally. Some police departments now have policy written by attorneys for liability reasons and then all the handlers, novices included, must use these devices. I believe that this is ridiculous and outright stupid. Also electric shock collar will enable the mediocre handler to use it as a crutch and a shortcut proper training and practice. A s a result then, when the collar is not charged or is not on the dog for what ever reason the dog is going to work less reliably then dog which was properly trained without shock collar.
Another problem I see is that misuse of the collar will effectively ruin the dog as a effective K9 faster and more permanently then any other training device, method or situation. l would compare it to ruination of the psyche of a K9 if injured by a gunfire.
Thus I am not totally against e collars, but I believe that handlers should train and certify as a K9 team at least 3 times in period of 3 years without e-collar before they should be allowed to use an
e-collar and than only after extensive and exhaustive training in proper use of it. Also any abuse of the e-collar should be reason for permanent termination of a police officer from handling a K9. Such Sword of Damocles would, hopefully keep handlers from misusing it and keep it as a helpful device.
Some of the appropriate uses like above mentioned quiet recall could be easily achieved with ultrasonic whistle for $7.
Pinch collar is not necessary in well trained dog. Do not take me wrong I am not against pinch collar at all for some high pain threshold dogs. I use it. But when the dog is done being trained properly to certifiable level, then the pinch collar is not needed. The proof is that in Germany pinch collars are illegal and even so there are many superbly trained dogs.
Yes there is a situation where the dog needs emergency brake and be recalled when he does not respond after he redirects on innocent bystander. Use of e collar may work in some such rare instances. This is however usually hypothetical question since situation is so quick that to use even handily placed transmitter is usually too slow. Also person who relays on an e collar for this eventuality than tends to neglect proper training of recall which is done without the benefit of an e-collar.
If e collar is necessary than the training without it had been done inadequately. The use may be helpful in some rare instances if used properly by superbly experienced handler.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
Let me add here one thing to alleviate any potential confusion in what I have written below. I have never seen any abuse of e collars by L.E.
Well I must be the old style trainer. I do not look at e-collar as another training method. I look at things not as optimistically as some here, but more from worst point scenario perspective. My main problem is this. Yes these collars may be great tool, but I have seen them used by civilians improperly and even abused more then I care to think of, that is more often than not. A lot of K9 handlers are not of Jim's caliber and often are novices in dog handling. It requires great knowledge and discipline to use them properly and not to abuse them intentionally or unintentionally. Some police departments now have policy written by attorneys for liability reasons and then all the handlers, novices included, must use these devices. I believe that this is ridiculous and outright stupid. Also electric shock collar will enable the mediocre handler to use it as a crutch and a shortcut proper training and practice. A s a result then, when the collar is not charged or is not on the dog for what ever reason the dog is going to work less reliably then dog which was properly trained without shock collar.
Another problem I see is that misuse of the collar will effectively ruin the dog as a effective K9 faster and more permanently then any other training device, method or situation. l would compare it to ruination of the psyche of a K9 if injured by a gunfire.
Thus I am not totally against e collars, but I believe that handlers should train and certify as a K9 team at least 3 times in period of 3 years without e-collar before they should be allowed to use an
e-collar and than only after extensive and exhaustive training in proper use of it. Also any abuse of the e-collar should be reason for permanent termination of a police officer from handling a K9. Such Sword of Damocles would, hopefully keep handlers from misusing it and keep it as a helpful device.
Some of the appropriate uses like above mentioned quiet recall could be easily achieved with ultrasonic whistle for $7.
Pinch collar is not necessary in well trained dog. Do not take me wrong I am not against pinch collar at all for some high pain threshold dogs. I use it. But when the dog is done being trained properly to certifiable level, then the pinch collar is not needed. The proof is that in Germany pinch collars are illegal and even so there are many superbly trained dogs.
Yes there is a situation where the dog needs emergency brake and be recalled when he does not respond after he redirects on innocent bystander. Use of e collar may work in some such rare instances. This is however usually hypothetical question since situation is so quick that to use even handily placed transmitter is usually too slow. Also person who relays on an e collar for this eventuality than tends to neglect proper training of recall which is done without the benefit of an e-collar.
If e collar is necessary than the training without it had been done inadequately. The use may be helpful in some rare instances if used properly by superbly experienced handler.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Two Moons on 29 January 2010 - 23:01
Were is it that you see this trend Hans?
by Prager on 30 January 2010 - 01:01
I am seeing use of e collars by LE personally
.Let me add here one thing to alleviate any potential confusion in what I have written above. I have never seen any abuse of e collars by L.E. But I know the intricacies and pitfalls of use of e-collars. And I am worried about the trend.
Prager Hans
.Let me add here one thing to alleviate any potential confusion in what I have written above. I have never seen any abuse of e collars by L.E. But I know the intricacies and pitfalls of use of e-collars. And I am worried about the trend.
Prager Hans
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