American lines question - Page 1

First off where did the "American"lines of the GSD come from? Why the narrow head and over angulation,walking flat on their hocks etc? How did that come about? Also....I don't want this to create arguments...I just want to know what comes of crossing "Show" lines and "Working"lines breeding wise.NO I am not thinking of doing that but I know it has been done and would like to tell someone that is thinking of it WHY not to do it.(if it isn't a good idea and I personaly don't think it is.) So please only educated answers.

Thanks in advance
~L~

Common wisdom traces it back to Lance of Fran-Jo in the late 60's and early 70's.

Ok but those dogs weren't over angulated....what along the way caused all of what we see now?

And, it was INTENSIFIED by Covy Tucker Hill just a few miles north of me.  The owner was also a judge and guess what?

By genetic selection they bread for slopey backs (giraffe, hyena) and long hocks, (Bambi, Thumper, Kangeroo). They chose flat rib cages so their front legs would swing feely (Borzoi, Greyhound). 

According to Willis, genes come in baskets.  You breed for one and the others in the same basket come along whether you want them or not.  They didn't want collie heads, but that was the price they paid for a ground eating, arm swinging, side gait.  They appear to glide.

There is a price to pay, straight fronts, narrow heads, flat ribcage etc.  When these "specials" are puppies, they have trouble walking and look deformed.  I know this because I have seen them. 

In my opinion, they were breeding for birth defects, very particular birth defects..

Some of the German showlines have had similar maltretment.  Look at some "banana backs"  and others who when stacked look like they have a hinged or broken back..  And, they are all the same color.  They have created a genetic bottle neck.  I think there are those who are seeking to diversify.  I don't know if the judges will let them.

I would hope there is a similar movement in the US.

Michele

You know, I'm no expert in the bloodlines of America, but I can tell you one thing:  I can look at a dog placing these days in American rings and tell whether it has Fran-Jo (actually Covy-Tucker Hills) dogs in its background or not...Not hard really, since most of the winners of the big shows are Covy Tucker Hills dogs.

To me, those dogs are a shame to the breed...The stovepipe necks, the HUGE ears, the sharp slope in the back, the hock-walking, all of it is really sad and marks our breed in America, at least the show winner lines.  I say show winner because here I'm not sure we have showlines and workingline...It's more like Show winners and pet lines.

My Oakley is American lines, but she's obviously not from the Covy-Tucker Hills dogs.  And she's a million times the dog that the Westminster winner last year is.  My old Shepherd had Lance of Fran-Jo in his seventh generation pedigree...He was a coward, through and through.  He wouldn't threaten to bite people, didn't go all psycho about other dogs.  But if someone threatened him, or a dog went out him, he'd tuck and run.  There were lots of champions in his pedigree.

The narrow heads and other distinguishing features can be traced back to Lance, all right.  He won Grand Victor, and was bred and bred and bred, placing his mark on future generations.  Then those extremes were enhanced and made even more extreme over time, until they became what they are today.  Want to see the pictures of how it has progressed?  Just check out the pictures of the top winning dogs in the US after Lance in the 60's and 70's...You'll see how the breed spiraled down from there. 

I certainly can't say that all American show dogs are that way, but all I've ever seen have been. The ones with good, real GSD conformation get passed over in the show ring in favor of the hockwalkers, some of which are so nervous that trying to check their teeth is a major problem.  I've also seen some very nice looking dogs that were not show line dogs, GSD that had generations of breeding with no champions.  Of course, since these were pet dogs, I don't know that they could have measured up to a German dog for working, but there are quite a few doing herding, and therapy, so draw your own conclusions from that.

Just my opinion...I used to do a lot of research with regard to the GSD in this country, before I became aware of the GSD from Germany and other countries.

Crys

I think Lance had fairly extreme angulation, compared to other dogs at the time. The watershed year was 1967. Lance was GV that year, while VA1 Bodo von Lierberg couldn't do better than Special Select.

Lance and his sons were overused in breeding, while Bodo and other German-style dogs were ignored. Lance himself came from two very nice German dogs. If you look away back at the German bloodlines, you will see the early dogs from the '20's had the same steep front Lance did.  Notice how long Lance's upper thigh is. That's what the breeders all started to look for, because it gives the dog a longer stride, and lovely sidegait.





Here's a GSD from the early 20th century:



The legs may be longer, giving the dog a square shape, but the conformation of the front end is similar, with the head and neck coming directly out of the shoulders.

The most heavily used dog in most show dogs. I look at alot of pedigrees for people from show to working and when I research the showlines Uran and his parents can be up to 40 times in a pedigree. It is scary because then where do you go from there?
dragongsd.com

The American lines,
scratch that.
The German Shepherd Dogs of America are as diverse and as mixed as the people themselves.
From every type they have evolved.

The American show lines comes from the American show judges and the breeders who chase after those trophys.

I see a great difference in the two.

Moons.

Uran was used way too much, like all top show dog studs, here and elsewhere.  That is the folly of the show world.  He wins, so he's bred to every bitch that can get near him, making huge numbers of progeny, and it's no surprise that we end up with the extensive saturation of a particular dog in all pedigrees, or too many, anyway.  There were probably far better dogs than him, but his owners had the money to get him to that level of conformation competition, thereby making him the more visible. The massive amount of money involved in succeeding at any type of competition makes the problem worse, by making certain dogs visible, when other, potentially better dogs are ignored, simply because their owners couldn't afford to take them to that level.

I think Uran was a good looking dog, if a bit faded, but he shouldn't have been bred as much as he was.

Sorry, I can see a ton of problems in the dog world, not just the GSD...Dog shows seem to be at the heart of the ruination of too many breeds, because the pressure of dog shows seems to influence extremes of breeding, such as the Covy Tucker Hills dogs...Look at how breeds have changed in the last sixty years.

I will not ever become involved in the show world, simply because I don't think I can be a part of it.  I can't watch the breeds destroyed by mediocrity of temperament and extremism of body.  It's not right.

Perhaps the SV should institute some requirements, that a given stud not be bred more than X amount of times in his, never to a bitch in any way related to him.  I know it would bite the bottom line of the breeders or owners of the VA and V rated dogs, but hey, by doing so, it might help the over use of certain studs.

Crys