shock collars - Page 1

whats your opinion on training with shock collars....does anyone here use them

Clint,
My opinion on electronic collars is that they are very good tools in the hands of a skilled trainer.  You need to learn how to use them and how to properly accustom the dog to them before using them.  The bottom line is a correction is a correction. When administered fairly, consistently and with proper timing they are effective.  In the hands of a person able to use an E collar properly they are a great training tool.  In the hands of an unskilled person they can be abusive just like any other correction collar (prong, choke, etc.).  

There are some big advantages to an E collar, you can correct at greater distances and the timing is instantaneous.  Timing is critical in dog training.  There is a lot to learn on how to use an E collar and I have actually gone to seminars with a top bird dog hunting guy in the country to see how to properly train with an E collar.  This guy competes with bird dogs for $50,000 cash prizes in one event.  His seminars are great and very expensive.   His two main training tools are clicker training for teaching and shaping behaviors and E collars for control at distance (up to a mile) and proofing behaviors. 

Using an E collar is a very involved training tool and requires a lot of understanding and thought.  Used incorrectly it can be very damaging.  You need to determine the dog's sensitivity level to the collar and this is a critically important process.  Every dog is different and great care needs to be taken when introducing the dog to the collar.   Placement on the neck is critical, i.e. when teaching a down the collar goes on top of the neck or even the back. 

I use all kinds of tools and collars for training depending on what I am trying to teach.  I have a training bag which has prong collars, leather collars, nylon choke collars and an E collar.  I have the E collar on my dog every day at work.  For me the E Collar has several distinct advantages: it is the only collar that a bad guy can not use against my dog in a fight.  Choke or prong collars can be used against the dog in a fight.  It also gives me a tool to control my dog at a distance if I need it.  If my dog is sent after a running bad guy and an innocent person steps in front of my dog; my dog may target the wrong person, the E collar allows an instantaneous correction at very long distances. 

If you are thinking of getting an E collar you need to get some training with a skilled trainer or don't get one.  You don't just put it on and go.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

Slam is exactly right. its another tool in the tool box.

E-collars are an extremely useful tool.
I personally use the dogtra 282ncp.

However, it is a tool that you need to consult a professional to use properly. Incorrectly used it can be extremely harmful to the dog, your relationship to the dog, collar dependency, etc......on down the line.

However if used correctly it can be a go to item for a wide variety of training purposes.

I would like to add to a couple advantages piggy backed off of Slam.

One, i like the humane nature of them. With the higher end collars you can apply the exact level of stimulus for the redirect you need with perfect timing at short and long range. This is a vital key!

Also, It gives you a means to give impersonal corrections, if you have been training long you would see where this plays a big part conflict between handler and dog.

They also allow you to sufficiently create suspicion which can be a useful tool as well.

 I have also found that in some of my high strung, spastic shepherd fosters it will actually settle there nerves where a collar correction fires them up and worsens the situation.

In behavior modification it also works well for the nerve racked dogs as you can limit the stimulus to the point you don't even feel it. For the dogs that take it takes "nothing" to send them into an avoidance/fear state they can be used to bring them out of it.

Also we have talked a lot about corrections but with proper collar conditioning and training they can be used as motivation device as well.

Also some dogs work well under continual pressure. There are circumstance where this is necessary as well.

In interests of not taking all day il stop there.

PLEASE DO NOT USE ONE SIMPLY AS A PUNISHMENT TOOL.

Slam,
Its funny you learned from the bird dog community. I got my start on the e-collars/training from the field/gun dogs guys as well. I still work with two that are high end retriever trainers.

experienced handlers only
not for 11 week old puppies.


PLEASE DO NOT USE ONE SIMPLY AS A PUNISHMENT TOOL  ?

I rest my case.

As a trainer...I have used e-collars to get a quicker response with a command or to have a solid recall from a far distance(in training of leash).IT IS NOT for training from the start!! It shouldn't be used by someone that doesn't know that they are doing or how to use it. It shouldn't be used on a dog that doesn't understand collar corrections and it should be used in conjunction WITH collar corrections after the dog consistently knows the commands.I would NEVER put it on a dog that is nervous from the beginning. I have seen  people using e-collars wrong and really screwed up the dog.Further more....if you NEED an e-collar all the time and your dog won't listen without it.....your dog isn't trained,it is just reacting to the shock. Just like with prong collars or even choke chains.....if used wrong you can seriously injure a dog.They are tools to convey what we are asking of the dog. (my 2 ¢)
~L~

Lav i disagree. I train a lot fo dogs from start to finish with a e-collar. from nervous wrecks to dominant hard asses to advance field / working dogs.

It is a tool that if properly used can be put to practical use in a vast amount of applications.




two moons,

what were you refering to when you quoted me and stated you rest your case?

Yoshy-Thats fine....but what happens when the e-collar isn't working? Dogs do get wise to it and then it blows you off cause it knows that you can't do a damn thing about it. What then? Not arguing just asking cause I have seen dogs in competitions that when the collar is on they preform great in training but when it can't be one them in a trial....they look like crap as though they have no obedience on them at all. I guess they might not be training them properly with it but again I am thinking that is become a crutch for training.

yoshy,
I have believed from the onset that Clint was not prepared to train a GSD in personal protection, and that asking about e-collars already is proof of that.

It really had nothing to do with your posts.
It's more to do with all of Clint's posts taken as a whole

The pup is 11 weeks old?

I just hope Clint is not jumping into things too soon.

I have reservations anytime an amateur wants to train a dog to be a ( PERSONAL PROTECTION DOG ) period.

He mentioned family and biting already.

I think this type of training is complex and must be done correctly, or you might as well produce a dangerous junkyard dog.

Schutzhund was never mentioned, nor was family pet and protector, only personal protection.

Just because a man says he can shoot, doesn't mean I'm going to hand him a loaded gun.

Clint could come back and give us more details about his plans and what he's doing now with his pup and possibly change my mind.

Moons.

That is simply becuase the correct operant collar conditioning was not done and the devise was used improperly. Also it was not tied in with the correct level of praise throughout the training. OBEDIENCE IS ABSOLUTE. collar  or no collar. Im not going to get into the slew of programs/ techniques used as it would take forever. We can discuss in spare time in AZ.

Ask yourself this. have you ever seen a dog when you dont throw a prong on him suddenly he felt compelled not to listen? I have many times. Its collar dependency because of issufficient training. There are a few big reasons for this and many underlying ones. But the point remains it happens with the improper use of any tool.

I stated earlier as one of the reasons to consult a trainer who understands how to use one effective is so that collar dependency doesnt become an issue.

THE NUMBER ONE REASON FOR COLLAR DEPENDENCY. a person that uses the collar in a punitive/corrective action only.

two moons.

understood. wasnt sure where you were coming from but i understand now.

thanks for clarifying.

i didnt dig in to find out the information you posted.
i was more pointing out for him to seek training and real quidance from an experienced hand.