I need your opinion on this.... - Page 1

When talking with some people that are active within the sport of SCH I hear at times the statement "all dogs can be run down, chased off the field" to be honest I think that this statement is wrong.

My experience is not as vast as some of the members of this board, so I would like to hear opinions on this. I would like to hear especially opinion of Hans, Jim, Get a real dog, and Gustav (others can cheap in as well).

"can every dog be run down, chased of the field"



I used to think so, but that was back when I hang out mostly with sport people, now being exposed to different kind of training and mind frame through training with people that train dogs for PPD, Private sectors, departments and Military I cant any longer support this statement. What I learned is that if dog is of solid temperament and good foundation was laid out the dog will not fail. What is your view on this? Thanks.

 Not all dogs can be run off the field. I believe the dogs that are trained in play/prey are being run off the field

because they are all prey no defense prey+defense= fight drive.

Dog needs to be taught to target people not sleeve. 

Any one else? Let's have a constructive discussion of something related to dogs for a change ;) rather than the OT b/s that is going on lately. :) Thanks wetzler for your input.

snaiper69, I believe that there are dogs out there, although few and far between that would die before running away from the fight. Of course you have to start with a great dog and the training has to be much more intense, but some of these dogs are just as game for the man fight as pitbulls are for a dogfight, they simply won't run or quit.It's do or die for them plain and simple.I've read stories of military dogs whose handlers had been killed in action. The dog stayed with the handler and had to be physically restrained before anyone friend or foe could approach the handler.What better proof of this could there be.                                                                                             Michael

My dogs are pretty tough, but I do think they could be run off the field. Not out of the house, though; twice they proved that they will get burglars, and that experience was pretty helpful to their self esteem! But I actually think they do think of the field as play time. 

well,for what my opinion is worth....i guess it's according to what extremes a helper/trainer would employ to prove a point.young dog development seems to be basically the same everywhere i go,the weak pups are exposed to the same stimuli as the strong pups(i.e.,line aggitation) and the weaker ones gain strength thru "pack structure"......but their lack of courage is always exposed during the latter phases of training...maybe(with suitable prey instinct) they can be "nursed" to a working title,with correct training,but"it is what it is"! i'll assume that in the eyes of a dog,a full grown human could be a formidable adversary(considering dogs first came to us with a subserviant compliant attitude eons ago)....given enough pressure,and a degree of "helplessness",i guess any dog could be"curred"(ran off),of course,there will always be exceptions to every rule,i've seen some real "wrecking machines"...dogs that can put you in the hospital if given half the chance..but on any given day,with a strong,aggressive helper,considering the mood and physical/mental health of said dog...that dog can be "curred",maybe it won't be as overt as one may expect(a slight turn of the head,backing up,unsure behavior)...that dog has been "shut down",and if that level of pressure continues,he'll shut down even more,and given the opportunity,will leave the field....but what is the point? sure,there will be that rare"gladiator",that will revel in this type of combat....when you find him,send me some straws of semen....and i'll breed it wisely!

"i guess it's according to what extremes a helper/trainer would employ to prove a point."

Very good point but no helper should employ anything more than when he would face a dog with no protection gear. That would be just plain stupid. We talking here about real scenarios not extreme when a helper try to prove that he is tougher than the dog because he has the protection gear on him ;)

When I am in protection gear I can brake any dog and only thing I will need is quick hands and solid fist, but I would not be so tough if I would wear my daily outfit ;). So lets keep the scenarios real.

ah OK, now I see what you're saying.  When I previously made the statement  "all dogs can be chased", I was thinking about on a field with the right helper in gear, not  a real life situation or what the dog perceives as a real life threat with someone in street clothes.  I too think those are 2 completely different scenarios and I agree with you.

Sueincc I didn't even knew that it was you that made that statment lol ;).

But let me make this statment even in SCh as long as the decoy dose not play dirty I still think that good dog won't be chase away. When I said in real street clothes I am not talking just about real scenario but the presure to be put on a dog be not something dirty that you in a real life would not be able to put on a dog. Hope this makes it clearer.

Snajper,
Since you asked, I'll offer my opinion FWIW.  Yes, I think under the right circumstances, with the right helper any dog can be run off the field.  Now, there are several circumstances that could cause this to happen to a normally strong dog.  I know most novice handlers think this can never happen to their dog, but I assure you it can. 

I believe there are several factors that can lead to this.  I know some very strong, very talented, intimidating helpers that can put a lot of pressure on a dog.  Far more pressure than I can on a courage test.  They will run full speed at a dog and not slow down and have the skill to catch a fast dog exceptionally well.  Now, a top level helper alone may not run a well trained high end dog off the field.  Now, let's take this nice strong dog that has never seen a helper like this before and has never experienced this type of pressure and I believe it can happen.  Ok, let's add in nervousness on the handler's part.  Maybe it's a big trial, perhaps the dog traveled half way around the world and everything is different for the dog.  I can assure you that the dog will read the handler's body language and pick up on subtle signals.  If the handler is nervous it will definitely translate to the dog.  Put all of this together, with an intimidating fast helper that the dog has never seen and I think it can happen. 

Some dogs are very strong and very intimidating themselves.  They have learned through training that their strong presence is often enough to get a reaction from the decoy.  This is similar to Mike Tyson when he fought Buster Douglas.  No one expected Tyson to lose, except maybe Douglas.  Tyson won most of his fights before he entered the ring up to that point, by his intimidating nature.  I suppose Douglas wasn't impressed and Tyson found out, what an upset.  Now, if a dog has never seen a helper with this skill it can be unnerving at least.  There are helpers that have the skill to run a dog, but realize it is detrimental to the dog to do it.   In a big trial, the helper has no choice and may very well be put in a position where he has to challenge the dog at this level.  I agree with VOS on this.

I have also seen some very strong dogs put in some very difficult situations in our training that have had some reservations to commit to the fight.  Our training for our Police K9's is usually based around a recent situation that one of the handlers has had.  For example a shooting, vehicle pursuit, burglary suspect, etc.  We will often recreate these scenarios for the benefit of the other handlers and training.  I can say that dogs, even the best have some issues, just like people.  Unless you put a dog into a situation that can potentially exploit this weakness and stress the handler at the same time, you may never see it until it's too late.  Of course the training has to be set up to show the issue and then become a winning situation for the dog.  The dog must leave stronger than it entered the scenario or at least be able to recover and repeat it successfully. 

I am not going to detail our training scenarios here, because on a public forum there are  people that think police K9's are pets and don't bite people for real.  Or PD's don't want hard, aggressive real dogs any longer because of liability reasons.  I have never met any PD's like that and i would quit before working a K9 in that city.  I will say that we do some realistic scenarios that include multiple bad guys, muzzles, no equipment, and simmunition and gun fire at night.  Simmunition hurts and definitely stresses the handler when he does not know what he is going into.  This translates