American lines question - Page 8

MaggieMae I think I know what you are talking about and no it isn't a burn mark.The one dog I was given has that too.Not sure what it is other then pigment. It is on both ears halfway down.Maybe they were floppy for some time and it is where tissue built up? Good question. Was wondering that about the dog I have cause my other one doesn't have it.I just got this one and he is 2 so I don't know what he was like as a pup but the one I raised his ears were up at 5 weeks. So maybe that is it.

I was just checking out the Timberline site, and saw this female, and was rather impressed by her: http://www.timberlinekennels.com/kess.html

She does not have a steep upper arm, has excellent bone for a female, and, if you look at the pictures of her heading towards the camera, you can see she's not narrow through the chest and body the way so many American dogs are. Her back looks to be almost level when she moves.  Okay, she could have more of a muzzle stop...

Usually, when I see a dog that's this 'normal' in appearance, it only has performance titles, as its conformation isn't extreme enough for the show ring.

Maybe there's a glimmer of hope?

BTW, the CKC now requires at least one performance title for a dog to get it's championship. Is it the same with the AKC?

LAV -- Those marks are in Eddie's ears also.

This is a delightfully civil discussion :)

I just wanted to interject for a moment as some terminology is getting confused.

A "special" is a finished champion in AKC
A "specialty dog" is a dog that is more suited for the specialty ring than the all breed ring.

A "specialty dog" can be a "special" (A finished champion that generally shows in the specialty ring).

Specialty type dogs generally do not show in all breed rings (though a good dog should be able to win in both ring).  You will usually see the more extreme dogs (the ones that gait and walk on their hocks) in the specialty ring.  You DO have to be careful that you don't let angles fool you.

On Eddie's page it shows an "extreme" rear (I personally find him to be quite moderate with good bone and beautiful balance), but if you look at his gaiting photos he is not gaiting off his hocks but still has good overreach in the rear.  I do agree he could use more reach in front.  I also think his head (the actual skull) is actually quite lovely, but I'd like more breadth of muzzle and more fill in the cheeks.

American dogs are generally not bigger than German dogs in terms of substance (bone has greatly improved in the boys though), they are just  taller (leggier).  The German dogs tend to be low stationed and heavier and lack front.  I personally do not believe the steep front to be an "American line" problem.  I see issues with proper shoulder angles in all lines.  It is something that seems to have been lost.

Sunsilver,
I did look at his conformation. Let me preface this by saying that i don't comment on conformation often because I an not into that world and I don't believe in projecting my opinion in areas that I am involved in. Also, I do not Judge good conformation from the same context as the show world. My context is based on how the conformation enables a dog to be an excellent utility dog. Fast, strong, good moving, quick, good jumper, etc.
Having prefaced the above, I would say that I like Eddie better than the other dogs on the page. Almost all the other dogs have entirely too much length of stifle to do anything but sidegait effectively. Eddie's seems much more moderate and so gives more of an appearance of balance than the other dogs. Form marries function for me, and I could possibly see Eddie capable of doing more than sidegait on a very high level. That's the extent of my assessment, I see other things but we will just let them be as they all seem to be nice congenial dogs.

Xeph, Gustav, thank you for your critiques.

July, those herding pictures are INCREDIBLE!  What a treat to see an American line actually working!

Unfortunately, my computer wouldn't load all of them, but I did see about the first half of them, and a couple of the White Clover Farm pictures.

Thanks for the great herding pictures July.  When I was talking about the near cripples I saw, they were young puppies. under 8 weeks on blankets thrown on the grass at a Specialty Ring. I assume most, if not all, got past the "just born Bambi" stage.  Your dogs looked highly angulated but no so extreme as what I was looking at.  It was around 1993-1994.  I live 10 miles South of Covy Tucker Hill.
east
My first GSD was 3/4 American/West German and 1/4 DDR/East German.   I joined the local GSD club and it was filled with serious people with Specials and they spent their time acquiring ribbons and Championships.

This is what I walked in with, he was thirteen months old in this picture and not filled out yet.  Compared to their dogs, he looked like the young Arnold Schwartzenegger.  He also had a poor croup and was, of all things a bit underangulated, even for a working dog.  We looked like we came in from another planet.  Maybe we did, we drifted into the Schutzhund world eventually.

 

Michele

 Thanks Pharaoh..Beautiful dog..

You know, even thought I own and breed American GSD I am far from having my head in the sand...I do know what you are all talking about (crippled-down pasterns-over angulation etc etc..).  I remember in the early 1990 period, when I saw the first american bred( i was doing schutzhund at the time) and went to a specialty show, I could not believe the over angulation and cow hocks dogs I saw.  In those time I would have not have a dog like that.  Let me tell it is MUCH BETTER today and we see less and less cow hockers and loose ligaments.  But there are still those who believe a loose puppy will grow out of it and don't pay attention to that when breeding.  I do..I want clean dogs from puppyhood to adulthood.  You can have good angulation and clean dogs..it is compatible!  But we have to keep those loose ones out of our breeding programs.

Same thing with the banana backs of the german lines..I don't know why there are so many..Can't they see those dogs looks unhealty and crippled??

Maybe i'm too demanding...

Julie

I think the banana backs are fashion victims. But, I do believe that is improving or maybe my eyes deceive me.

Pharaoh's father is a V(LGZS) KKL1 and his mother is a KKL2.  I think Pharaoh is pretty but he will never go in the German or the American show ring.


  20 months
  6 months

The only one where he is actually stacked is the second one-I was at Kim's house (Justk9s) and she stacked him and I took the pictures.  Of course, there are other problems, he is an example of what people are talking about when they say a lot of the DDR dogs are not "biddable".  He is 26 months old now and I am just recently making progress.  I am beginning to think I could actually train him for a BH.

Michele

You can have good angulation and clean dogs..it is compatible!
I agree!

I will say that I have seen some puppies that have started out overdone but with good ligamentation grow out of having so much rear.  I have also seen puppies of moderate angles end up OVER angulated.  Disappointing to say the least. And some puppies aren't overangulated but extremely clumsy x.x