This is a placeholder text
Group text
by steve1 on 24 January 2010 - 21:01
Yes you can use an E Collar to train a Dog But if you want that dog for the ScHh sport then on that day he will not be wearing an E Collar, The only aid you will have is your voice and not a lot of that
So all you Guys who have trained a Dog with an E Collar to obey your commands how has it faired in the ScHh Sport that will be interesting to know seeing as no one has asked this
As i say for me i like to train a Dog the old fashioned way, By kindness, Firmness and by using the qualities of the Dog and that means not only the Sport side of SCHh but Sheep Herding etc which i did many years ago
Only the above was used not even a Pinch Collar in those days a good old fashioned Leather collar was all we had plus patience and a bit of know how
But everyone to there own, I guess they call it progress
Steve1
by Slamdunc on 24 January 2010 - 22:01
4pack,
Excellent, sounds like great training. If you ever post any videos I'd love to see them. Keep up the good work with your dogs.
Steve1,
Do you use a prong collar to train your dog or only a fur saver? If you use a prong collar what do you do on trial day with out it? I have trained with some of the best SchH competitors in the world and they use an E collar, prong collar, choke collar, clickers, etc. These are BSP and WUSV competitors. I have trained SchH and I will use every advanced training technique I can and they work splendidly. I can compete and easily trial my current Police K9 in SchH at a very high level right now. Except the tracking would cost me points because his police style tracking is very fast. I have met many top trainers from Europe over the years and one thing they have in common is using E collars. I trained my first SchH dog with an Ecollar for bite work and proofing obedience exercises it worked great, they results were fantastic. My second dog a female I trained to a SchH 3, IPO 2 never used an E collar on her, different dog different methods. She was also fantastic. My current dog I use the E collar on him for work and training, and it has been a fantastic training tool.
I'm pretty much done with this thread. Here are my final thoughts. In the hands of a skilled trainer who understands how to motivate and manipulate drives E collars are a great tool. In the hands of a mediocre trainer they can be used incorrectly to deliver extremely harsh corrections. One thing I have learned over the past couple of years is that you need to really understand how the collar works and how to properly use it. It takes serious training to apply the training principles correctly and this is no joke. Any one who puts an Ecollar on a dog and cranks it up to fix a problem shouldn't be training dogs and definitely shouldn't be using Ecollars. Tess made an excellent point about this.
Use what works for you, but get out of the dark ages and at least open your eyes to what the true pros are doing. Clickers, E collars, prong they all work when used properly and the pros use them all. If you don't understand them or don't need them, don't use them. If your current methods are getting you the results you desire then why change? My methods are working for me and I learned them from some of the best in the world, nothing I invented just copied.
Jim
Excellent, sounds like great training. If you ever post any videos I'd love to see them. Keep up the good work with your dogs.
Steve1,
Do you use a prong collar to train your dog or only a fur saver? If you use a prong collar what do you do on trial day with out it? I have trained with some of the best SchH competitors in the world and they use an E collar, prong collar, choke collar, clickers, etc. These are BSP and WUSV competitors. I have trained SchH and I will use every advanced training technique I can and they work splendidly. I can compete and easily trial my current Police K9 in SchH at a very high level right now. Except the tracking would cost me points because his police style tracking is very fast. I have met many top trainers from Europe over the years and one thing they have in common is using E collars. I trained my first SchH dog with an Ecollar for bite work and proofing obedience exercises it worked great, they results were fantastic. My second dog a female I trained to a SchH 3, IPO 2 never used an E collar on her, different dog different methods. She was also fantastic. My current dog I use the E collar on him for work and training, and it has been a fantastic training tool.
I'm pretty much done with this thread. Here are my final thoughts. In the hands of a skilled trainer who understands how to motivate and manipulate drives E collars are a great tool. In the hands of a mediocre trainer they can be used incorrectly to deliver extremely harsh corrections. One thing I have learned over the past couple of years is that you need to really understand how the collar works and how to properly use it. It takes serious training to apply the training principles correctly and this is no joke. Any one who puts an Ecollar on a dog and cranks it up to fix a problem shouldn't be training dogs and definitely shouldn't be using Ecollars. Tess made an excellent point about this.
Use what works for you, but get out of the dark ages and at least open your eyes to what the true pros are doing. Clickers, E collars, prong they all work when used properly and the pros use them all. If you don't understand them or don't need them, don't use them. If your current methods are getting you the results you desire then why change? My methods are working for me and I learned them from some of the best in the world, nothing I invented just copied.
Jim
by michael49 on 24 January 2010 - 22:01
Moons, I get what you're saying, but would you not agree that in the hands of an inexperienced trainer or better yet one that has just finished reading a few chapters from one of William Koehlers books the prong collar or even a choke chain might be misused just like an ecollar. I personally would not suggest the use of any of these tools in the wrong hands.All of these tools have a place in training but only one has the ability to correct unwanted behaviour at distances greater then that of a longline.As for as the dog being unreliable when not wearing the ecollar , that same dog will be unreliable without a prong collar or simply off leash, his mindset at that time is piss on you,you can't make me.I do have a dogtra 2300NCP and have taken a few hits from it, but I'll be honest I haven't worn a prong collar to see how that feels and I'm not likely to in the future. Anyway each to his own when it comes to training, always been disagreement and always will be.
Michael
Michael
by Slamdunc on 24 January 2010 - 22:01
Michael,
Good post.
Jim
Good post.
Jim
by steve1 on 25 January 2010 - 07:01
Jim
you have not read my posts I said a E Collar can be a useful tool in the right hands but a bad one in the wrong hands more than a prong because all you have is a button to press,
Yes indeed i too train with the best in Belgium and included is 4 times WUSV champion if i have a mind too plus other Guys who were well up in the first 30 places in this last years WUSV but in my club i have the Belgian team Captain, a Wizard with G.S Dogs, trained and owned a WUSV champion and his life time friend who in fact has trained German Shepherd Dogs for 40 years winning a great deal titiles along the way training many dogs from Pups to ScHh 3 IPO 3 etc He is a fantastic Helper and one of the best Track Layers in Belgium,
Plus he helps the Belgian Police train there Dogs and has done so for a long time he is a great fellow but he uses his own methods of training which do not ever include a E Collar so those two Guys alone have over 70 years of experince with German Shepherds and they are the ones who help the likes of me train, and as i said i am not in there class and possibly will never be
For My Older Dog handled now by my brother He uses a Prong Collar, and he will not need anything else as that dog is responding well, highdrive beautiful to watch walking trained to do so by me, and a huge drive and keen to work Should have been going for his ScH1 in a week but has been off training for 3 months solid so that will have to wait a couple of months, My brother does not want a passing score to get the ScH1 he wants a high score in all Phases so will train him a bit once we get back to the training ground
As for my Pup she is 8 months old, She Heels good, She Listens well and is focused very well indeed , She sits without command if i stop etc, will slow her gait to mine without being told if i slow my walk and will fly over the 7ft A frame as if it is not there, but I only let her jump half a meter high at the present
Her prey drive is more than i have seen in any Pup for some time, she is Ball and Tug Crazy, Crazy on anything you have in your hand,and will do everything at 150 miles an hour at play
Yet as soon as you put the leash on her to go to train she switches off and becomes another Pup altogether and that is what makes her to me a cut above other Pups, the abitity at such a young age to be able to Switch on and off instantly
I guess several other people noticed it when she was a four to five month old for i was made offers to buy her from me at that age,
Of course since that age 3 months have gone by and no one has seen her as we have not been training at the Dog clubs, but will be back again tomorrow evening and a good job too
Collars i only have used a Leather collar for her training todate, but later as she gets older i expect i will use a pinch collar
On the work field as always in a Competition we use a Chain collar. and of course we train with one as well so the dog is used to the feel of it but it is never used in correction of a dog
As i said i am in agreement of the use of E Collars so long as the person useing it has been trained to do so not any Jack the Lad who can buy it then use it willy nilly on his dog not knowing what he or she is doing
Plus a Big NO for the use on a Pup by anyone that is certainly not neeeded in any case if that person has bought it up from an 8 week old weaned Puppy
Also my last on the subject as all i do is too repeat myself, that goes to show there is little interest in what i write unless someone things i have wrote in a wrong style then i get a reply
Steve1
you have not read my posts I said a E Collar can be a useful tool in the right hands but a bad one in the wrong hands more than a prong because all you have is a button to press,
Yes indeed i too train with the best in Belgium and included is 4 times WUSV champion if i have a mind too plus other Guys who were well up in the first 30 places in this last years WUSV but in my club i have the Belgian team Captain, a Wizard with G.S Dogs, trained and owned a WUSV champion and his life time friend who in fact has trained German Shepherd Dogs for 40 years winning a great deal titiles along the way training many dogs from Pups to ScHh 3 IPO 3 etc He is a fantastic Helper and one of the best Track Layers in Belgium,
Plus he helps the Belgian Police train there Dogs and has done so for a long time he is a great fellow but he uses his own methods of training which do not ever include a E Collar so those two Guys alone have over 70 years of experince with German Shepherds and they are the ones who help the likes of me train, and as i said i am not in there class and possibly will never be
For My Older Dog handled now by my brother He uses a Prong Collar, and he will not need anything else as that dog is responding well, highdrive beautiful to watch walking trained to do so by me, and a huge drive and keen to work Should have been going for his ScH1 in a week but has been off training for 3 months solid so that will have to wait a couple of months, My brother does not want a passing score to get the ScH1 he wants a high score in all Phases so will train him a bit once we get back to the training ground
As for my Pup she is 8 months old, She Heels good, She Listens well and is focused very well indeed , She sits without command if i stop etc, will slow her gait to mine without being told if i slow my walk and will fly over the 7ft A frame as if it is not there, but I only let her jump half a meter high at the present
Her prey drive is more than i have seen in any Pup for some time, she is Ball and Tug Crazy, Crazy on anything you have in your hand,and will do everything at 150 miles an hour at play
Yet as soon as you put the leash on her to go to train she switches off and becomes another Pup altogether and that is what makes her to me a cut above other Pups, the abitity at such a young age to be able to Switch on and off instantly
I guess several other people noticed it when she was a four to five month old for i was made offers to buy her from me at that age,
Of course since that age 3 months have gone by and no one has seen her as we have not been training at the Dog clubs, but will be back again tomorrow evening and a good job too
Collars i only have used a Leather collar for her training todate, but later as she gets older i expect i will use a pinch collar
On the work field as always in a Competition we use a Chain collar. and of course we train with one as well so the dog is used to the feel of it but it is never used in correction of a dog
As i said i am in agreement of the use of E Collars so long as the person useing it has been trained to do so not any Jack the Lad who can buy it then use it willy nilly on his dog not knowing what he or she is doing
Plus a Big NO for the use on a Pup by anyone that is certainly not neeeded in any case if that person has bought it up from an 8 week old weaned Puppy
Also my last on the subject as all i do is too repeat myself, that goes to show there is little interest in what i write unless someone things i have wrote in a wrong style then i get a reply
Steve1
by Gustav on 25 January 2010 - 14:01
Steve, Your repeating yourself is not from nobody being interested in what you say, but maybe because you have told us one thousand times that you train with the best in Belgium, or that you don't understand why we do something OVER HERE in the States. Its like we didn't understand you the first time and we need to be told time and time again. You start feeling like the dog that has the handler that constantly is giving the command over and over obviously not reaching the dog or they wouldn't have to keep the constant repeating. I don't mean this in a negative way but enlightening you to some of our perceptions. Many of us have trained with some great trainers, that's a given, but there are many people on this board who have been doing this dogtraining thing successfully for many many years. There are other on the list who are very passionate and energized but their post often show their lack of experience regardless of whether it is sport/work/breeding/or show.
I personally have a lot of respect for those that have been working and breeding dogs successfully for long periods of time. So, if Koos as an example does something different from me I open up my ears to see if there is something for me to add to my knowledge base from his perspective, because his breeding program has been successful for years in producing the type of dogs that often do well in Law Enforcement. The key is being open and intelligent enough to recognize others that are knowledgable...many people can't do that unfortunately.
I think you bring excellent points to the table on some things, and on others your lack of exposure shows. (It doesn't matter why the lack of exposure as this is not bad), its just that it is obvious to some, when people are speaking about something they are not skilled in.
So keep the good posts coming and people do listen when you post about things in your element. This post is written in respect from me to you as I enjoy the info you give us as to what's occurring in Belgium.
I personally have a lot of respect for those that have been working and breeding dogs successfully for long periods of time. So, if Koos as an example does something different from me I open up my ears to see if there is something for me to add to my knowledge base from his perspective, because his breeding program has been successful for years in producing the type of dogs that often do well in Law Enforcement. The key is being open and intelligent enough to recognize others that are knowledgable...many people can't do that unfortunately.
I think you bring excellent points to the table on some things, and on others your lack of exposure shows. (It doesn't matter why the lack of exposure as this is not bad), its just that it is obvious to some, when people are speaking about something they are not skilled in.
So keep the good posts coming and people do listen when you post about things in your element. This post is written in respect from me to you as I enjoy the info you give us as to what's occurring in Belgium.
by Slamdunc on 25 January 2010 - 15:01
Steve,
I was only responding too your question of "does anyone who does SchH use an E collar and what happens during a trial without the presence of the collar?". My whole post was not directed towards you, please don't take it that way. I was simply answering your question , when I reread my post I can see how you might think all of my comments were directed towards you. They weren't; just that one paragraph.
I know that you are very serious about your training and train with some excellent people, I'm a little jealous actually. I do agree with your point that it is very easy for an unskilled person to simply push a button and over correct their dog. That is one of my main concerns with someone just going out and buying an E collar and slapping it on a dog to "fix a problem" or as a last resort.
Jim
I was only responding too your question of "does anyone who does SchH use an E collar and what happens during a trial without the presence of the collar?". My whole post was not directed towards you, please don't take it that way. I was simply answering your question , when I reread my post I can see how you might think all of my comments were directed towards you. They weren't; just that one paragraph.
I know that you are very serious about your training and train with some excellent people, I'm a little jealous actually. I do agree with your point that it is very easy for an unskilled person to simply push a button and over correct their dog. That is one of my main concerns with someone just going out and buying an E collar and slapping it on a dog to "fix a problem" or as a last resort.
Jim
by yoshy on 25 January 2010 - 16:01
Steve
you asked in an earlier post about how did those fair whom trained with them in schh. I dont compete in schh however many of the great PSA dogs are trained with them. As Im sure you know in any sport obedience must be absolute while maintaining a "happy to work" relationship to reach high levels of competition.
Collar dependency has come up alot but is the same for any tool. If the proper conditioning is done, and a balanced training method is put to use then you dont end up with the dependency. You end up with a reliable dog that is happy and willing to work.
Its just another useful tool that has endless applications and is extremely useful in a wide variety of situations.
you asked in an earlier post about how did those fair whom trained with them in schh. I dont compete in schh however many of the great PSA dogs are trained with them. As Im sure you know in any sport obedience must be absolute while maintaining a "happy to work" relationship to reach high levels of competition.
Collar dependency has come up alot but is the same for any tool. If the proper conditioning is done, and a balanced training method is put to use then you dont end up with the dependency. You end up with a reliable dog that is happy and willing to work.
Its just another useful tool that has endless applications and is extremely useful in a wide variety of situations.
by steve1 on 25 January 2010 - 18:01
What is the matter with you Guys, You are telling me something that i already know and have agreed with
Do i write that stupid that some of you cannot read and understand what i write
I have said now several times in fact every post i have put on this subject that E Collars have there place in the right hands IF it is needed but not every dog needs an e collar to train it that is certain not even the most highly driven dog does, But NEVER with a PUPPY for if anyone who owns a dog cannot control a Puppy then they best get a cat instead, How much plainer can anyone put it
Now Yorchy is telling me what i have agreed with others on
Christ is my English Language that bad that you Guys do not understand it, I have wrote a bloody Book and the English can understand it but as i said we speak a common language but most of what is said means opposite from one country to another it seems,
In my other sport a lot of Guys from your country the USA wanted to purchase my Book, it is just as well it was not sold over there in the USA for i would have had no end of trouble trying to explain to them going by the problem i have trying to put my views across on this site, But no more I will leave you guys to it you all speak the same Language
Steve1
Do i write that stupid that some of you cannot read and understand what i write
I have said now several times in fact every post i have put on this subject that E Collars have there place in the right hands IF it is needed but not every dog needs an e collar to train it that is certain not even the most highly driven dog does, But NEVER with a PUPPY for if anyone who owns a dog cannot control a Puppy then they best get a cat instead, How much plainer can anyone put it
Now Yorchy is telling me what i have agreed with others on
Christ is my English Language that bad that you Guys do not understand it, I have wrote a bloody Book and the English can understand it but as i said we speak a common language but most of what is said means opposite from one country to another it seems,
In my other sport a lot of Guys from your country the USA wanted to purchase my Book, it is just as well it was not sold over there in the USA for i would have had no end of trouble trying to explain to them going by the problem i have trying to put my views across on this site, But no more I will leave you guys to it you all speak the same Language
Steve1
by Two Moons on 25 January 2010 - 18:01
I don't think it's you Steve,
It's not a problem of understanding the language.
Moons.
It's not a problem of understanding the language.
Moons.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top