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by Mindhunt on 31 January 2010 - 21:01
"I want a buddy who works with me because he enjoys it because we are a team. Yes he messes up sometimes, but so do I" I agree Prager, well said.
As for behavior correction, I wonder if it would work on teenagers or husbands for that matter? Things that make you go hmm
As for behavior correction, I wonder if it would work on teenagers or husbands for that matter? Things that make you go hmm
by LAVK-9 on 31 January 2010 - 21:01
Mindhunt- LOL I think that if an ecollar was good at training a husband or kid(pretty much the same thing) There would be a LARGE amount of them sold...and many on backorder!!!
by Held on 01 February 2010 - 19:02
E collar is a tool like all other tools and if used properly can achive great results and if not used properly can be disastrous period.Ecollars are not the problem it is the people who use them just like it is always the people who cause the problem when it comes to anything with dogs.Nothing more nothing less.Have a nice one.
by Prager on 02 February 2010 - 00:02
E collar is a tool like all other tools
So Held you are saying that all the tools are the same...? I find that to be an interesting concept.
Prager Hans
So Held you are saying that all the tools are the same...? I find that to be an interesting concept.
Prager Hans
by Slamdunc on 02 February 2010 - 23:02
I feel I need to clarify something, I might have taken some things for granted in this thread. My training revolves around creating drive and working my dogs in drive. This may involve food and a clicker for shaping and imprinting certain behaviors to a ball on a rope to work in drive. Nearly all of my training is done in a positive manner, working my dog in drive and rewarding when correct with a ball on a rope or a rolled up towel for Narcotics detection work.
I always use a toy, everyday even when working my dog I use a toy. That is my dogs paycheck. It may be a ball on a rope or tug depending what I have handy and what I'm training. I also use different collars from a flat collar, prong collar, nylon choke and E collar at different times when working different exercises. They all have their place in training. My dog will work as well with the collar on as he does when it is off. But when training something new or reinforcing certain training I have a means of correction in place. There are times when we up the anty to proof the dog's training and corrections may be necessary. If you are not ready then the dog gets to make mistakes with out consequence.
In todays competitive sport environment the judges are looking for happy, correct working dogs. National level competitors, and I know several, have no chance of winning if they use extreme compulsion as some have mentioned on here. IMO, times have changed and training has evolved. The smart competitors know this and look for the best way to train their dog and maintain that happy working dog. I'm sure there may be some that still are heavy handed but they will not be on the podium for long these days.
I understand the need for compulsion when training a dog and the need for praise and reward. It is the skilled trainer who knows how to use these concepts properly and fairly. Perhaps, I lead a sheltered training life. I don't train with anyone who is abusive to their dogs with any training tools, especially E collars. So, I don't see what the big deal is about them.
When I read comments like this posted on a different thread I can see why people are concerned about the use of E collars:
had a dog once, that on the "here" command, he would get a funny look in his eye and take off. He would come back a few days later......shock collar set on high dropped him to his knees about 3 times and he never ran off again. I call "here" and he was so close that he almost knocked me over.
many of the puppies in a 3 miles radius looked just like him!
that being said, shock collars are good as a last resort.
Some people who leave a wake of dead dogs in their path and obviously have no clue about training shouldn't even own dogs, IMO. They really shouldn't ever use E collars. I do agree that people who lack the skills to properly train a dog shouldn't try an E collar as a shortcut to proper training. But, for those that take the time to learn how to use them and are skilled trainers they are an effective tool.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
I always use a toy, everyday even when working my dog I use a toy. That is my dogs paycheck. It may be a ball on a rope or tug depending what I have handy and what I'm training. I also use different collars from a flat collar, prong collar, nylon choke and E collar at different times when working different exercises. They all have their place in training. My dog will work as well with the collar on as he does when it is off. But when training something new or reinforcing certain training I have a means of correction in place. There are times when we up the anty to proof the dog's training and corrections may be necessary. If you are not ready then the dog gets to make mistakes with out consequence.
In todays competitive sport environment the judges are looking for happy, correct working dogs. National level competitors, and I know several, have no chance of winning if they use extreme compulsion as some have mentioned on here. IMO, times have changed and training has evolved. The smart competitors know this and look for the best way to train their dog and maintain that happy working dog. I'm sure there may be some that still are heavy handed but they will not be on the podium for long these days.
I understand the need for compulsion when training a dog and the need for praise and reward. It is the skilled trainer who knows how to use these concepts properly and fairly. Perhaps, I lead a sheltered training life. I don't train with anyone who is abusive to their dogs with any training tools, especially E collars. So, I don't see what the big deal is about them.
When I read comments like this posted on a different thread I can see why people are concerned about the use of E collars:
had a dog once, that on the "here" command, he would get a funny look in his eye and take off. He would come back a few days later......shock collar set on high dropped him to his knees about 3 times and he never ran off again. I call "here" and he was so close that he almost knocked me over.
many of the puppies in a 3 miles radius looked just like him!
that being said, shock collars are good as a last resort.
Some people who leave a wake of dead dogs in their path and obviously have no clue about training shouldn't even own dogs, IMO. They really shouldn't ever use E collars. I do agree that people who lack the skills to properly train a dog shouldn't try an E collar as a shortcut to proper training. But, for those that take the time to learn how to use them and are skilled trainers they are an effective tool.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
by yoshy on 03 February 2010 - 01:02
Jim as you know I agree with you whole-heartedly on the use of e-collars as a tool.
I want to pose a question to all and you stay out of it for a while haha.
Many have mentioned, with the use of eCollars you will form collar dependency.
What is the difference between any collar or corrective device when it comes off the dog and you need preformance?
How are you escaping the collar dependency from any other collar?
Also, many have mentioned the brutality of the ecollar-
What is the difference with a mis-used or overly harch correction from a prong which leads to ripping the skin on a dogs neck or the misuse of an ecollar with to much stimuli or a chain choke which is use improperly and crushs the dogs trachea?
I would also like to ask why people like them as a last resort? I have heard this on here by several people.
I would also like a show of hands of how many people here have sufficiently trained a dog using an ecollar? How many of those sought out council from someone with a proven track record using these devices?
Also I would like to ask how and when you use the device.
Since the general consensus amongst the majority is against an ecollar I would like some intelligent reasonings why this device should not used and kept in the trainers tool box.
I want to pose a question to all and you stay out of it for a while haha.
Many have mentioned, with the use of eCollars you will form collar dependency.
What is the difference between any collar or corrective device when it comes off the dog and you need preformance?
How are you escaping the collar dependency from any other collar?
Also, many have mentioned the brutality of the ecollar-
What is the difference with a mis-used or overly harch correction from a prong which leads to ripping the skin on a dogs neck or the misuse of an ecollar with to much stimuli or a chain choke which is use improperly and crushs the dogs trachea?
I would also like to ask why people like them as a last resort? I have heard this on here by several people.
I would also like a show of hands of how many people here have sufficiently trained a dog using an ecollar? How many of those sought out council from someone with a proven track record using these devices?
Also I would like to ask how and when you use the device.
Since the general consensus amongst the majority is against an ecollar I would like some intelligent reasonings why this device should not used and kept in the trainers tool box.
by Two Moons on 03 February 2010 - 01:02
Couldn't you number your questions..?
I still believe in training the old fashion way, and that takes time.
There's no substitute for time.
Anyone who abuses the tools mentioned is not a trainer.
If you need constant corrections using any of these tools you haven't done your job as a trainer.
Prongs are as bad as e-collars to me.
Moons.
I still believe in training the old fashion way, and that takes time.
There's no substitute for time.
Anyone who abuses the tools mentioned is not a trainer.
If you need constant corrections using any of these tools you haven't done your job as a trainer.
Prongs are as bad as e-collars to me.
Moons.
by Jyl on 03 February 2010 - 08:02
OK, Yoshy I am doing to take a stab at this.....but I am sure that Jim will join in soon and comment! 
...so Jim I hope i am not to far off on this....
#1.... "Many have mentioned, with the use of eCollars you will form collar dependency.
What is the difference between any collar or corrective device when it comes off the dog and you need preformance?
How are you escaping the collar dependency from any other collar?"
If a dog becomes dependent on a particular collar....whether it be a pinch collar or E Collar then there is something lacking in the foundation of the dogs training. I feel that these collar should be used on a "finished" dog so to speak. What I mean is that dog MUST have a complete understanding of what the handler is asking of it. Then these collars can be used. The E-Collar, for example, is good for distance work. So, as long as the dog knows what is being asked, if the dog decides to say F you then the correction with the collar would be justified and let the dog know that is MUST listen even at any distance away from the handler. So as long as the dog has a solid foundation set in training I do not see where the dog would have a dependency on any type of collar. Alot of people(not all) use the pinch collar or E Collar to teach a behavior, so this is how the dog becomes dependent on a particular type of collar.
#2..."Also, many have mentioned the brutality of the ecollar-
What is the difference with a mis-used or overly harch correction from a prong which leads to ripping the skin on a dogs neck or the misuse of an ecollar with to much stimuli or a chain choke which is use improperly and crushs the dogs trachea?"
I do not see any difference is the misuse of any collar. When a collar is misused there is always going to be some kind of "damage" to the dog.
#3...I would also like to ask why people like them as a last resort? I have heard this on here by several people.
I believe that people use them as a last resort because they do not know how to train a dog correctly so they figure that the dog will learn to listen when it is shocked or jerked with the pinch collar. So in short, it is the handler that has the lack of knowledge and skill to correctly communicate to the dog what they want.
#4...I would also like a show of hands of how many people here have sufficiently trained a dog using an ecollar? How many of those sought out council from someone with a proven track record using these devices?
If I understand this correctly....I am going to say no one. Since most (not all) people do not know how to correctly use and E Collar or pinch collar. So in this case the dog would be trained with compulsion only. I feel that in this case since there would not be a proper foundation set in training the dog would breakdown mentally.
...so Jim I hope i am not to far off on this....#1.... "Many have mentioned, with the use of eCollars you will form collar dependency.
What is the difference between any collar or corrective device when it comes off the dog and you need preformance?
How are you escaping the collar dependency from any other collar?"
If a dog becomes dependent on a particular collar....whether it be a pinch collar or E Collar then there is something lacking in the foundation of the dogs training. I feel that these collar should be used on a "finished" dog so to speak. What I mean is that dog MUST have a complete understanding of what the handler is asking of it. Then these collars can be used. The E-Collar, for example, is good for distance work. So, as long as the dog knows what is being asked, if the dog decides to say F you then the correction with the collar would be justified and let the dog know that is MUST listen even at any distance away from the handler. So as long as the dog has a solid foundation set in training I do not see where the dog would have a dependency on any type of collar. Alot of people(not all) use the pinch collar or E Collar to teach a behavior, so this is how the dog becomes dependent on a particular type of collar.
#2..."Also, many have mentioned the brutality of the ecollar-
What is the difference with a mis-used or overly harch correction from a prong which leads to ripping the skin on a dogs neck or the misuse of an ecollar with to much stimuli or a chain choke which is use improperly and crushs the dogs trachea?"
I do not see any difference is the misuse of any collar. When a collar is misused there is always going to be some kind of "damage" to the dog.
#3...I would also like to ask why people like them as a last resort? I have heard this on here by several people.
I believe that people use them as a last resort because they do not know how to train a dog correctly so they figure that the dog will learn to listen when it is shocked or jerked with the pinch collar. So in short, it is the handler that has the lack of knowledge and skill to correctly communicate to the dog what they want.
#4...I would also like a show of hands of how many people here have sufficiently trained a dog using an ecollar? How many of those sought out council from someone with a proven track record using these devices?
If I understand this correctly....I am going to say no one. Since most (not all) people do not know how to correctly use and E Collar or pinch collar. So in this case the dog would be trained with compulsion only. I feel that in this case since there would not be a proper foundation set in training the dog would breakdown mentally.
by Jyl on 03 February 2010 - 08:02
Cont......
#5...Also I would like to ask how and when you use the device.
I use either pinch collars or E Collars when the dog COMPLETELY knows what I am asking of it. That way when the dog gets a correction with either the pinch or E Collar they know what they have done wrong. Also the correction will not need to be very hard either. When using a pinch the correction would be a light "tap" on the leash. When using the E Collar it would be either the "page"(vibrate) or the "nick" button. Again the dog must know the command and have the proper foundation set in training before these training tools are used. That way the dog will know what it was corrected for. I would also like to add to this....that I always have the dog do something that I can praise it for right after a correction. That way the dog will not see the correction as something completely negative. It will know that what it did was not correct BUT in the next instant it can do something correctly and be praised for it.
#6...Since the general consensus amongst the majority is against an ecollar I would like some intelligent reasonings why this device should not used and kept in the trainers tool box.
I feel that this is a good tool for someone that knows how to correctly use it. Again, this is for a dog that knows what is being asked of it and has the proper foundation set in its training. Like with any tool..there is the proper way and the wrong way to use them. It takes a skilled person that has a very indepth knowledge in training to use one correctly.
#5...Also I would like to ask how and when you use the device.
I use either pinch collars or E Collars when the dog COMPLETELY knows what I am asking of it. That way when the dog gets a correction with either the pinch or E Collar they know what they have done wrong. Also the correction will not need to be very hard either. When using a pinch the correction would be a light "tap" on the leash. When using the E Collar it would be either the "page"(vibrate) or the "nick" button. Again the dog must know the command and have the proper foundation set in training before these training tools are used. That way the dog will know what it was corrected for. I would also like to add to this....that I always have the dog do something that I can praise it for right after a correction. That way the dog will not see the correction as something completely negative. It will know that what it did was not correct BUT in the next instant it can do something correctly and be praised for it.
#6...Since the general consensus amongst the majority is against an ecollar I would like some intelligent reasonings why this device should not used and kept in the trainers tool box.
I feel that this is a good tool for someone that knows how to correctly use it. Again, this is for a dog that knows what is being asked of it and has the proper foundation set in its training. Like with any tool..there is the proper way and the wrong way to use them. It takes a skilled person that has a very indepth knowledge in training to use one correctly.
by yoshy on 03 February 2010 - 14:02
I disagree on #1. but thats just difference in opinion. Myself and many others have a proven track record of producing nice finished dogs including training-shaping- and finishing dogs with an ecollar. Now with that said it doesnt mean with out the use of other tools as well. I dont know Jims methods but I will say I fall in line with his "training in drive" with my working shepherds.pay off is normally tug game- or ball- bumper-(seldomly) food etc...... However what if you not training a shepherd but its a house obedience dog which your not going to tug- and is not food motivated- nor toy or play drive?
I have seen a lot of people use them as a finishing tool and i have no quam's with it. But it can most definitely be used in many more facits if applied correctly. The applications are really endless. Also there are many ways to avoid the collar dependency.
However I owe all the credit to 2 trainers whom are in the field/gun dog community that constantly produce national level podium field dogs for teaching me many training methods and applications of which to use ecollar.
#2 I agree
#3 I agree
#4 not exactly sure what you meant?
#5 totally different in training methods. I can see where your coming from and il just agree to disagree cause it goes way off topic haha. And we will never all be on the same page as we all are different. Thats fine as long as your end result is there.
#6- It takes a skilled person that has a very indepth knowledge in training to use one correctly.
Wouldnt this statement be true for training to a high level of profficiency in general and include the use of all tools?
I know I was vague but not trying to write a book as i could talk for years on this topic haha.
I have seen a lot of people use them as a finishing tool and i have no quam's with it. But it can most definitely be used in many more facits if applied correctly. The applications are really endless. Also there are many ways to avoid the collar dependency.
However I owe all the credit to 2 trainers whom are in the field/gun dog community that constantly produce national level podium field dogs for teaching me many training methods and applications of which to use ecollar.
#2 I agree
#3 I agree
#4 not exactly sure what you meant?
#5 totally different in training methods. I can see where your coming from and il just agree to disagree cause it goes way off topic haha. And we will never all be on the same page as we all are different. Thats fine as long as your end result is there.
#6- It takes a skilled person that has a very indepth knowledge in training to use one correctly.
Wouldnt this statement be true for training to a high level of profficiency in general and include the use of all tools?
I know I was vague but not trying to write a book as i could talk for years on this topic haha.
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