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by yoshy on 28 March 2010 - 16:03
Respectfully,
I agree and disagree- collar dependency does happen- it also happens more frequently when people dont use them correctly- I have also seen dogs be collar depenent for longer when used as an overlay than those trained on an ecollar. Many times I have seen dogs collar dependant for life due it being used as a punitive tool rather than its intended use, or poor timing, etc...... But if used correctly from learning phase through proofing phase it can be sufficiently weaned off after the dog has reached reliability and a relationship has been established and the dog understands his role in life..
If collar dependency occurs 99% of the time how are top field retriever trainers(national level) capable having there dogs preform tasks at extreme distances from the handlers in the absence of the ecollar even though it is the tool used to train the dog? Area searches, directional work 100's of yards away, retrieving, etc.......
A dog can become collar savy of a prong,choker, ecollar just alike. If our goal is reliable offlead obedience regardless of the tasking your training has to be spot on with the use of any of these devices. proper conditioning, timeing, praise, not allowing failure without ability to interrupt or preform corrective action, and the proper weaning of the selected device.
If any link in this chain is broken then you will reach your intended goal. correct?
When teaching concepts with the use of an ecollar, take SIT equateing- after initial conditioning, you tell the dog to sit, pressure does not stop until I reach the desired location (sitting) , pressure stops, and good things happen when i sit. My handler praises me. So if i complete this tasking quickly sharply and effectively my handler will like it and I get what I want. Good things happen at the hands of my handler, bad things happen at outside of that realm when I am uncompliant. So next time I will do as asked to obtain my praise instead of the pressure that occurs when i am uncomliant. Once the dog has successfully learned to sit and the behavior has been proofed sufficiently under distraction inclose, at great distances etc..., the dog would have developed the disire to sit on command when ever told. due to his relationship with his handler and knowing the consequences of failure and the reward of success. Once all of this has been successfully accomplished and the dogs is becoming reliable without stimulus, over the span of a large number of repetitions you would start to wean the dog of the collar. With the relationship in place and the dog knowing the desired result you should no longer need the collar correct?
So how does this not obtain a relationship with handler? How does this differ from the use of a training collar?
There are some differences but the basic basic concepts are similar. IMO.
Irregaurdless of our training opinions on this particular tool the concept of the government being able to take a tool out of our tool box is astonishing to me. How many prongs have been misused, hurt dogs,etc.... or chokers used incorrectly, yet they are still around and in the right hands help us produce top dogs. All have their pros and cons and we could discuss/debate them to the end of time. People have opinions for a reason. I respect yours as you do mine however we both are being influenced by those whom cant fathom what we are discussing right now. Which i find insulting and closeminded as these type people would rather our dogs be put down for doing what they were bred to do than train them efficiently. It makes my blood curdle.
With all due respect
Lee
by LAVK-9 on 28 March 2010 - 17:03
I like that analogy!! Very nice Hans. I don't envy you having to work with a SAB. I had to run one on the treadmill per clients request.Well the dog didn't like it and would always associate me with the tourture of running(he was a lazy SOB).It got to the point e would not let me get him out of the kennel.So others would.Shortly he wouldn't let anyone near him. It got so bad that he had to be muzzled for the groomer. The man that owned it was an idiot and though it was funny when the dog would go after his wife and mother in law. That dog had issues from the start. Not sure what happened to him. On a good note for the breed my friend is raising and training one now and it is a sweet heart (thanks to being raised right by someone that knows how to handle the breed)
Here is a picture of her 2.5year old daughter walking it through Bass Pro Shop.Just so cute.Also with a Ovcharka.
by Prager on 29 March 2010 - 15:03
Even the best trainers are not able to wean out the collars. It is obvious from the fact that the collar goes on and off immediately before and after the performance in the field.
how are top field retriever trainers(national level) capable having there dogs preform tasks at extreme distances from the handlers in the absence of the ecollar even though it is the tool used to train the dog? Area searches, directional work 100's of yards away, retrieving, etc.......
The way this is possible is because there is a momentum where it takes to the dog some time to realize that the collar is not on. Same as a fly wheel on a gyroscope.
Thus if you take the collar off permanently that the conditioning goes away sometimes rather quickly. This length of time depends on the the level of conditioning achieved. But is it a simple conditioning after all which is stemming from a stimulus caused by the collar. That is exactly what I am against in relationship with the dog. I want me as a friend and partner of the dog to be a source of the stimulus and not an electronic device regardless how efficient.
A dog can become collar savy of a prong,choker, ecollar just alike.
Again that is a truth, but with any other collar the dog see the relationship between me and the stimulus. If I then properly motivate the dog through positive and negative reinforcement I have a partner and not a cyborg responding to instead of to an electric stimulus.
Continue below.
by Prager on 29 March 2010 - 15:03
OK, this is a nice explanation of negative reinforcement . => Bad thing stops and good thing starts when I do what I need to do.
The problem with this is again that the dog associates only the positive with you and not the negative. mI want the dog to associat both with me. It is only fair to the dog and proper to the realtionship I want to have with the dog. That was the original sales pitch of Tritronics company.However the problem starts often very short time after the e collar is off. Again that is why the competitors take the collar off just seconds before the competition and but it back right after the competition and also that is why many police departments have a policy that the dog must have e collar on when on duty.
Off course even pinch and chocker collars may have this problem if used improperly as an only source of negative reinforcement. If done improperly then the dog associates the chocker or pinch with negative reinforcement and not the handler. But if properly matched with proper motivation to perform the task this does not happen. It is always necessary to make sure that chocker or pinch is not the only source of negative reinforcement but one of many possibilities.Thus the conditioning does not lead to association with the pinch or chocker collar, but instead it leads to the association with the handler who assumed leadership position through many direct training tools (in contrast of indirect training tool like e collar) and many other positive and negative ways to establish leadership position.
Please do not missunderstand me. I believe that it is your choice what kind of a relationship you want to have with your dog. If you like e collar no government should pass the law against it.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by yoshy on 29 March 2010 - 22:03
Prager,
Im not misunderstanding you at all. We are on the same page as far as government standpoint. I am just discussing the topic of its applications. Is all. Just a little back and forth you know. Dont get me wrong either I am a big fan of traditional training and apply it, My household of dogs are split traditional- 1 prong and tug (ppd), 2 koehler (simply a pet) and 3 ecollar(2yr employed trailing dog,cgc,in training for PSA). As well as my client dogs are split according to each independent dog. So this is simply discussing opinions and applications for of this tool. You should know I pick everyone's brain haha.
I understand the initial pitch from tritronics. Sales pitches are just that. Sales pitches. HAHA.
However,
Why must a dog need to associate a punitive action with its handler from the collar(which ever used prong,choker,etc...)?
Doesnt he receive enough signals from us to know when we are displeased with him throughout his everyday life. We also help the dog succeed through the learning phase with our hands,training collar,withholding reward etc... which is compulsion. or when teaching the down you are putting pressure on his training collar in a way to show him what you want and allow him to make the choice to down while pressuring him with stimulus from the ecollar to make the choice. So basically what I am getting at hear is your presence, hands on through learning phase and non-tolerance of refusal in proofing phase should be sufficient for you and your dog to acquire a working relationship from the negative aspect. As well as obviously cultivating the way for the praise and happy side of your relationship through the training evolution. In turn would equal a nice working relationship correct?
Also, If a dog is watching you give the correction, or apply the pressure(in any facet physical,withholding reward, etc...), wouldn't you think that would cause conflict between handler and dog, as well as collar saviness?
Also- It has been my experience that overlaying with the employement of an ecollar is the number one reason for collar saviness 2nd to only using them as a punitive device and takes much longer for them to function without its use because the operant conditioning and ground work were not laid. However thats been my experience. Many of my and employers client dogs that were trained with the use of an ecollar have come off the collar with reliability anywhere from 4 months to a year. average 6-8 months. Now this depends on the tasking at hand as well and many variables per dog. But i would say if applied correctly through training from start to finish the percentage of dogs whom can become reliable in the absence of the collar are extremely higher than 1%.
IMHO
by olskoolgsds on 29 March 2010 - 23:03
Great post. Reasoning like yours is the only hope we have. I have said for a long time now that our breed and all working breeds will be banned or deluted by the AR groups and the politicians they have in their pockets. Take Hollywoods actrices and actors and lots of donated money to these bleeding heart causes, and we will all find our selves with Golden Ret.'s Many many folks in the US give to organizations that ultimately lead to these types of bans. Do a little research.
If gsd breeders, fanciers, trainers and users of this breed and other working dogs would stop all the crap name calling, putting every competitive breeder and trainer down to build up their own name we would be much better off. We will fall from within, because we would rather fight with each other, go after byb or puppy mills than stick together for the good and continuance of the breed. I am not endorcing puppy mills or byb, but they are not our problem.
Our problem is us. We are lazy when it does not directly affect us. We are selfish, we all claim to "be about the breed", yet sit and watch it happen, do nothing and even contribute to it by bitching amongst our selves. Remember the famous line of Kruschef (sp?) You will fall from within. Evil prevails when good men do nothing.
by yoshy on 30 March 2010 - 00:03
dont discredit prager on this. He is no fool and a very intelligent man. He also has a great many accomplishments to his name. I for one went to his and jiri's seminar to learn from them. our discussion on the applications of a tool should not deviate attention from the fact our opinions on the government intervening in our affairs is wrong.
.......continued........ extension from earlier post.
Prager,
My trainer and dear friend has a service dog in now going home in a little over a month. was taught obedience, forcefetch, targeting, delivery, etc... all with the use of an ecollar and will demonstrate all of the above with collar on or off. retrieve items from fridge, phones ringing etc... turning on light switches, delivering money, opening doors, etc.... all the normal tasks assigned to a service dog for a man whom is confined to a wheel chair. She successfully functions happily and reliably on or off the collar. How is this level of training and reliability possible if a dog cant be successfully weaned off the collar. As she does it with and or without the collar. In which I would be more than happy to provide video of.
Also, any training collar goes on and off before and after the training evolution. So how does this aspect differ. From what you described of your use of the any collar is you want the dog to feel the correction would come from you and not the collar. So you are requesting attentiveness from the dog correct? If the dog does not comply with your request he would recieve a correction from you. How does this differ from requesting his attentiveness with an ecollar. When I take the dogs out. They start on long line. How are the differentiating between your stimulus and mine? there is an collar and a line attached when the line is tight the dog feel stimulus, when the dog does not comply it is given a stimilus. So they both symbolize the same thing correct?
Also If you take any training collar off your dog and dont conduct training regularly they will get dirty correct? they require refinishing from time to time and or practice applying and continued reinforcement throughout there life right? I knwo many top competitors whom will never do offleash work until the day they compete and they throw the collar right back on when looking to title or continue training to the next level. We know some of the same PSA, KNVP, french ring guys. Most of them do this. With ecollars and without. So how does this really differ as well?
Do not take this as more than discussion and consulting your opinion bud.
I dont question your ability in the least. You know this. I just like go into depth with everything.
by olskoolgsds on 30 March 2010 - 01:03
Yoshy, you have jumped way over to another atmosphere. My reference to your post was in regards to what the Gov. is doing with E-Collar bans. It addressed the thread by Lav-k9 and your response to the thread "BAN ON E-COLLARS" , followed by a short but sweet post by Mickey D. Gustov also said something like "good post Yoshy". I did not read any after that.
The fact that you all had taken this thread to a different level had nothing to do with me. I for one am comfortable with my use of E-collars and did not feel the need to get into a long conversation as to how and how not to use them. I blew by this stuff cause #1, it did not interest me, and 2, it was side tracking, derailing from the thread that Lavk9 had posted. Hyjacking is another word for it I believe.
So chill out, take a look at my post and see that I believe that the thread on the E-Collar Ban was of utmost importance and that possibly you and a few others could have brought up another thread on the "proper uses of an E-Collar". Hans knows I meant no harm, he's the man IMO. I would suspect that Hans may have been as confused as me as to why you posted what you did.
by yoshy on 30 March 2010 - 02:03
I was just saying Prager was in the same boat in agreeance with the rest of us haha. wasnt being snippy.
guess i worded that post a little wrong now that re-read it. Sometimes i dont convey whats in my head to paper the best. my apologies.
thank you for the compliment though. i do honestly believe it is the case.
by LAVK-9 on 30 March 2010 - 18:03
Hold on to your guns and your ecollars....they might all be taken some day.
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