Ban of the e-collar - Page 2

Well said, Yoshy.  Do these "positive is the only method" people have children?  Do they not withhold dessert from Junior if he sasses them at the table?  If they do so, they've (GASP) used negative or aversive reinforcement.  

Dogs are not delicate. They will not disintegrate if someone tickles them on the neck with a mild electrical stimulation. 

People are afraid of things they do not understand,The Brits do not have have many talented ecollar trainers in part due to the difference in the Field Trials,they do not require the level of control, difficulty of the tests  or extreme distances seen in American Trials ,necessity is the mother of invention they had no need over there  Tri tronics was really the one who launched the revolution they originally published a book 30 years ago written by Dr Daniel Tortora that approached training from the behaviorist viewpoint and applied many of the principles still used today,I don't think that book ever made it across the water! Any attempts to ban them in this country would be met with resistance from among others a large Lawyer-laden Field Trial community     This is a Friend in The Netherlands that got a collar I love her! she also incorparates the collar into the herding training

Here is the dog herding I find this fascinating!

Yoschy, Very well said !!

Thank you guys.

You need a strong negative in the first video (daisy chasing sheep).  The chasing of the sheep is a self rewarding behavior, you have basically three options, get rid of dog to a location where there are no livestock, shoot the dog, or apply a strong enough negative that the dog decides that the self reward of the activity is no longer worth the negative.     Again this is with a set, self rewarding behavior.  With out the e-collar you can risk snapping the dogs neck or collapsing his trachea with the choke chain and long line correction at full speed but to me the e-collar is gentler.

In the second video with herding sheep a much lesser "guiding" correction is needed as the "chase and kill" behavior has not had a chance to be set and self rewarding.  The dog is channeled into a much more desireable behavior. 

with out the e-collar you have to be a good shot with a rock from the shovel on the end of the herding staff or use a long line.  It is much easier with the e-collar (and if you throw like me you don't have to worry about paying for a windshield)

Thank God for the lawyer laden field trial community over here.  It is nice to have all the tools available in the box.

As far as the video above of obedience work, it certainly can be done with most dogs without e-collar. In my opinion, one should not use the e-collar except for rare situations and or/polishing. Good obedience training begins without distractions and as the dog becomes more and more compliant, one introduces distractions. Too many people begin incorrectly or move too quickly. I don't like using an e-collar for routine walks etc., because one is at the absolute limit of "power steering" if, for whatever reason, the dog ignores the e-collar. Also, if the dog is trained with it, all too often they learn that they can get away with ignoring commands when it is not on them. I also agree with the poster above that one can seriously injure a dog with long lines. But then, the handler can also be injured too if not paying attention. Many people, including me, have been dumped early on in learning about SchH from a long line that was forgotten about. I know one person who broke a leg getting dumped.

E-collars are fine tool in the hands of knowledgeable and skilled people. They can be abused too, just like most tools.

yes thank God those Lawyers do come in handy sometimes.One time some rogue members of the LRC  tried to change the standard for Labradors our Lovely Lawyer-laden LRC fought them all the way to the Supreme court and won, so I don't doubt the same crowd would rally about e-collars since the LRC is home for  most of the top e-collar trainers

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Yoshi,
 I am against banning of e collars, but I rarely use one myself. I am training dogs for 44 years and I assure you that I have trained every dog with behavior problems which you have mentioned and then some and all of them without an e collar. As a matter of fact, funny you mentioned it , I am training one mean African Boerboel now. The behavioral problem is rarely  caused by the dog, but it is caused by the  improper relationship the owner has with his dog which is based on such persons views, attitudes and culture. The need to change those  is a #1 task of the good dog trainer who is rebuilding a relationship between the owner and the dog. I, in my humble opinion, believe that there is rarely  place for e collar in such a task.  As soon as the dog understands through proper relationship that he is not in leadership position  most  behavioral problems above mentioned and (others too) usually go away or are more or less easily trained out. I have never fail to correct behavioral problems in dogs  described above, however sometimes  I have failed to change people's attitudes towards their dogs. I thing that in these failed cases it would be beneficial to put the e collar on the owners.:) I assure you that I am not "liberalistic" nor "ignorant of using the e collar". However I do not like to use them because they are a crutch and limit to a lesser or greater degree, the relationship between the owner and the dog. I do not question excellent results achievable with e collars in a sport field and elsewhere  but I do not want to have that type of a relationship with my dog and also let me say that high score in sport is not a measure of the level of relationship between the handler and the dog.  

I do not exactly understand what you mean by:"Until I see someone whom will go from start to finish on one of the these dogs with a high degree of reliability and success I will continue to hold the opinion that they and there methodology is severely flawed.
Are you trying to say that methodology of all the people ever, before the e collar was created was flawed? I assure you of the obvious, there were thousands upon thousands of trainers very successful before the invention of e collars. I do not want to be bashing you but please take it as an advice and something to think about. If someone is not able to train a dog without an e collar in any situation then his methodology may be flawed. 
Again I am not against e collars and I am against banning them by dogooders.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com