by White Ice Wolfs on 29 November 2011 - 18:11
by tell the truth on 01 December 2011 - 06:12
The Swedish breeder bought that dog in good faith and only knew what they were told at the time of buying the dog & it was only after the dog arrived in Sweden did that breeder finally find out the truth. In fact, the real truth is no-one knows where those dogs originally came from ... how they were bred ... etc ... except for the fact the owner had to relinquish them. The dog first came to light as a rescue dog & was originally advertised as a rescue dog ... its breeding and background was all pure guesswork ... I hope this helps you White Ice Wolfs ...
by pandoras box on 02 December 2011 - 22:12
by tell the truth on 03 December 2011 - 02:12
Here the dogs Rex & Betsy are listed without colours when all the other dogs have the colour listed:
Then here the same two dogs Rex and Betsy are listed as white:
But the Australian records list Rex and Betsy as black and gold:
Now White Ice Wolfs ... what sort of breeder does that?
by White Ice Wolfs on 03 December 2011 - 20:12
by White Ice Wolfs on 03 December 2011 - 20:12
by Stumpywop on 05 December 2011 - 03:12
I have a couple of questions though - if anyone can answer them please.............
Firstly, why are Australian pedigrees questionable? I'm sure there are reputable breeders in Australia but at the same time I don't see why a breeder would change or hide info on a pedigree.
Also, wrt WSS or WGS having blue eye, could this not be a result of a mutated colour gene? I know it happens in humans, can it happen in dogs also?
Furthermore, if the breeder in Sweden is reputable, would she/he not have carried out extensive checks before importing the dog from half way across the world?
I couldn't open the link, but from what I understand, if the breeder has knowlingly tried to breed a rescue dog, that in itself is bad enough, but to breed without health testing etc is deplorable.
by Stumpywop on 05 December 2011 - 03:12
Essentially, as I now understand it, a Swedish breeder imported a WSS who was a rescue dog fro backyard breeding practices. Disgusting!
At least we now know who it is.
I was looking some time ago into purchasing a WSS puppy. Fortunately I wasn't looking in Sweden but in Spain, a local breeder who lives near my family there and who originated in Wales. Think I'll always stick to European dogs - at least I know I can get to the kennels to look at them first and travel back with them.
by tell the truth on 05 December 2011 - 10:12
Australian pedigrees are questionable for a number of reasons.
Firstly, the Australian National Kennel Council (ANKC) is the only Australian organisation that is an FCI associate affiliate. This makes the ANKC (and its affiliated breed clubs) the only organisations that can legally issue pedigrees for any dog breed in Australia and for export. Whether people like the ANKC or not, whether they agree or not, is irrelevant.
The ANKC first accepted the WSS around 2009, but with no Australian dogs in the import pedigree. In other words, WSS needed three generations of FCI pedigrees behind them for re-registration with the ANKC as a pedigree dog. Now incomplete FCI pedigrees are accepted for fully imported dogs, but there can be no Australian dogs in the three generations behind them.
Secondly, a few diehards started a club to promote the white German shepherd as a separate breed (then called the white shepherd) in around 2000.
Up until the late 1990s the WGSD could show in the ANKC show ring. Around then the colour white became a disqualifying fault. WGSDs could only be registered on the Limited Register as long as they come from ANKC registered dogs. That remains unchanged today.
When the FCI accepted the Swiss Kennel Club’s submission for a developmental register around 2003, these diehards changed their name to white Swiss shepherd. But they still bred to at least four breed standards (GSD, AKC, UKC and FCI). They also did not apply to the Swiss KC for inclusion in the developmental register.
The dogs in the Australian foundation mostly came from pet shops or backyard breeders (possibly carrying the white gene) or white dogs that looked like GSDs. These dogs were entered into the club records. Rex and Betsy are two prime examples of this. There were only a very small handful of ANKC dogs (only around 3 or 4) included as it is against ANKC’s code of ethics and conduct to knowingly breed a purebred dog with one that is not purebred or to another breed.
The diehards successfully touted the old sob story that GSD breeders were culling any whites born to gain public sympathy. Whether GSD breeders were doing this or not, is irrelevant.
This gave these diehards a platform to promote their new dogs, selling them for around $800 and upwards as pedigree dogs with papers.
Once the WSS became accepted in Australia it was even more confusing for the Australian and worldwide public. One rightly assumes that an organisation calling itself after the WSS and advertising their dogs sold with pedigrees would be issuing ANKC pedigrees. Neither the WSS or WGSD organisations are ANKC affiliated and cannot issue legitimate pedigrees.
In 2006, a breakaway group formed naming themselves after the white German shepherd and began doing the same thing with the same dogs and foundations. So then Australia had white Swiss and white GSDs mostly coming from the same foundation stock. Confused?
Over recent years the waters muddied further with the import of US, Swedish and European lines (non-ANKC registered) to breed with foundation stock in an attempt to further their claims to legitimacy. And these days the dogs sell for $1000 and upwards. Still without ANKC pedigrees and still unable to show in the ANKC conformation ring. Both groups hold their own conformation shows and championships not recognised by the ANKC. These shows and titles are another great marketing tool.
Now we legitimately have the ‘real deal’ here in Australia. There is only a handful of real ANKC WSS in this country. It is a nightmare for the people trying to do the right thing and legitimately start the foundation for the ANKC registered WSS. Currently the only legitimate WSS lines here come from Europe.
So unless you are buying a dog from Australia that has an ANKC pedigree, that dog has a questionable ‘pedigree’.
by pandoras box on 07 December 2011 - 09:12
White Ice Wolfs
I really don’t care as to one way or another as to what you believe in BUT KNOW the FACTS first!
The truth is you have only heard or in this matter read one side of the coin
I asked you what would you have done if you were placed in the same position????
In reality no one can answer that one as we all hope that when we buy a WSS/BBS purebred we all hope that the breeder is honest and upfront about there lines etc etc.
BUT to have been scammed like the breeder was in Sweden and then have to pay for something that she didn’t get is most appalling to anyone let alone to any breed.
It was a KNOWN FACT about ‘Toby’s’ heritage within Australia at the time.
This particular breeder here was quite convincing about her knowledge of the WGS & WSS in around 2005/2006
The breeder in Sweden honestly thought she was getting a purebred dog from Australia.
Let me tell you what steps and time frame that were conducted & I do have a good memory.
I don’t believe you were here in Australia at the time or were you?
So let me remind you in case you have forgotten
Toby was advertised on front page of ‘club’ website to be ‘REHOMED & RESCUE’ – no price was advertised at that stage, the next phase was
Price was put on & taken off throughout several weeks.
After a month on the front page a new advert was made that said ‘PUREBRED’ dog.
Now during that time the people that were involved in the breed/club had made inquires about the male we were ALL told that Toby was a rescue and it was stated to several different people that NO history came with this dog.
I was told by the person who put the advertisement up on the website - straight from the horses mouth so unless I was told lies at the beginning who really knows. ‘he came from a backyard breeder’ along with this next statement “he looks like a G/S and could really add to the gene pool here in Australia” and "as long as him comes in with a good hip score" I will make it up as I go!
After a month of that advertisement the whole page vanished from the website.
He is not mentioned at all, no-where on the website ….. just gone, disappeared.
Next thing we heard was he was staying in Sydney and mated (accidentally) with a bitch while going through mesh/doors/trailers just to get a bitch in season.
Tell me if you can ‘Who’ paid for the damage on the property'?
From my understanding 'everyone involved' new about this "lack of" history in regard of Toby BUT all chose NOT to disclose any information at the time of his departure prior going overseas to Sweden.
Sad to see how far & to what lengths people here will go to, to hide the real truth ..... very sad indeed.
Next thing we heard about ‘Toby’ was he was sent to Sweden for NEW Bloodlines? What the…..
And this particular breeder here used that tool for her promotion of being the 1st to export a dog from Australia that will give Sweden NEW bloodlines in order to get her lines authentic.
Several weeks later the breeder in Sweden tried to find out more about Toby lines by going through his bogus heritage and emailing different people here in Australia, as they say the rest in history.
So please White Ice Wolf do not post about something that you clearly no nothing about as you have only heard one side of the story.
Here is something for you to look at, a price list that was made by the breeder way back in 2001.
Part of the News Letter 'World of White Shepherds' in 2002 written by that particlur breeder sent out to ALL 'club' members in Australia.
Way before the FCI accepted the breed WSS in 2003.
So was this a money making venture for this breeder even before the breed was accepted in 2003?
Your guess is as good as mine.
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