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by Ceph on 10 December 2009 - 17:12
Trebons -- let me see if I can clear this up for you. You'll be in Red, I'll be in black.
CEPH/cate
Yep you are most defiantly confused no doubt about it You don’t read what’s been posted and jump straight in without thought You are just one contradiction after another THE FOLLOWING, I know is taken slightly out of context ,the emphasis on the word slightly
You wrote
You and your standard are riding the wave of hard working people who fought for their mongrels against a standard that people just like you were enamored with. People who overcame an enormous amount of pressure to keep the white coat alive and thriving.
Please remember to keep all that in mind when you talk about the importance of a standard. Because in the end...without people who fought a standard, this wonderful breed would never have existed. It makes far more sense to fight for what is better then it does to follow rules that in the end only restrict and harm.
You also wrote
I actually am a proponent of adopting the FCI standard...it really isnt that much different other then ours is more specific to prevent showline issues. However...the kicker is we wont be registering our dogs anyway because the FCI wont let us. So it doesnt change anything. My FCI female is registered with AWSA and not with the AKC...as are others...but it didnt strengthen our argument a whit. Bummer, that.
Virtually everything you write is a contradiction , but be that as it may ,a couple of points I would like to make
I absolutely do read what's posted. In fact, I generally respond like this except I take the persons comments out. In this case I shall leave them in for ease of use.
The first comment was made when I was trying to remind just how the WSSD came about....you remember that GSD standard that essentially destroyed all the Whites in Europe back in the 30's? That standard whose structural aspect has essentially destroyed the showline GSDs? The same standard that some folks fought against to create the WSD...which eventually became the WSSD?
Here's my feeling on standards...in case I didnt make myself 100% clear. I feel that as long as the structural aspect of it serves the purpose of the breed then they're a great thing. I think the WSSD standard serves the purpose of the breed....I feel that it is a wee bit vague when compared to the AWSA standard which has parts that prevent structural extremes that ruined the GSD...but in general I feel it is a good standard....structurally.
However, I feel that just about every standard is weak when it comes to serving the genetic and ability side of a breed. I feel this way because I've heard way to many people say this about dogs with beautiful structure but weak nerved and genetics : "But he/she fits the standard". Yeah...he/she fits the standard but he/she sure isn't improving on anything but structure when you breen him/her.
Just to clarify -- this is what I think would work in Europe (everywhere for that matter) as far as improvment :
CEPH/cate
Yep you are most defiantly confused no doubt about it You don’t read what’s been posted and jump straight in without thought You are just one contradiction after another THE FOLLOWING, I know is taken slightly out of context ,the emphasis on the word slightly
You wrote
You and your standard are riding the wave of hard working people who fought for their mongrels against a standard that people just like you were enamored with. People who overcame an enormous amount of pressure to keep the white coat alive and thriving.
Please remember to keep all that in mind when you talk about the importance of a standard. Because in the end...without people who fought a standard, this wonderful breed would never have existed. It makes far more sense to fight for what is better then it does to follow rules that in the end only restrict and harm.
You also wrote
I actually am a proponent of adopting the FCI standard...it really isnt that much different other then ours is more specific to prevent showline issues. However...the kicker is we wont be registering our dogs anyway because the FCI wont let us. So it doesnt change anything. My FCI female is registered with AWSA and not with the AKC...as are others...but it didnt strengthen our argument a whit. Bummer, that.
Virtually everything you write is a contradiction , but be that as it may ,a couple of points I would like to make
I absolutely do read what's posted. In fact, I generally respond like this except I take the persons comments out. In this case I shall leave them in for ease of use.
The first comment was made when I was trying to remind just how the WSSD came about....you remember that GSD standard that essentially destroyed all the Whites in Europe back in the 30's? That standard whose structural aspect has essentially destroyed the showline GSDs? The same standard that some folks fought against to create the WSD...which eventually became the WSSD?
Here's my feeling on standards...in case I didnt make myself 100% clear. I feel that as long as the structural aspect of it serves the purpose of the breed then they're a great thing. I think the WSSD standard serves the purpose of the breed....I feel that it is a wee bit vague when compared to the AWSA standard which has parts that prevent structural extremes that ruined the GSD...but in general I feel it is a good standard....structurally.
However, I feel that just about every standard is weak when it comes to serving the genetic and ability side of a breed. I feel this way because I've heard way to many people say this about dogs with beautiful structure but weak nerved and genetics : "But he/she fits the standard". Yeah...he/she fits the standard but he/she sure isn't improving on anything but structure when you breen him/her.
Just to clarify -- this is what I think would work in Europe (everywhere for that matter) as far as improvment :
by Ceph on 10 December 2009 - 17:12
Just to clarify -- this is what I think would work in Europe as far as improvment :
Set up a Keuring system -- not unlike the German Warmblood Horses have. Wait until the dog has reached maturity and then look at structure, health, genes and temperment and determine whether or not the dog brings something to the WSS gene pool. This could be done with Whites imported from non-FCI affiliate clubs such as AWSA in the US, as well as with outstanding examples of the GSD breed that fit the structural standard of the WSSD. For the dogs that are approved, they can then be listed in a stock registry that is approved for breeding to the main registry...and they and their offspring can remain in the stock registry until they have three generations of an approved registry or white in their background. This way you bring in dogs with fabulous temperment, fabulous genes, and good ability without hurting the structure. Where's the harm?
I dont really see the contradiction. I really dont feel like standards are a bad thing except when they're used to harm the breed....sadly it seems like 90% of the time they're used to harm a breed O,o
It's pretty easy to make things like like a contradiction when you pull them out of context...but the problem is it's generally pretty easy to put them back in.
1 I don’t know how this got onto working but obviously you have a huge need for recognition ( hint –earn it)
It got into working because it seems like the majority of the whites are lacking...and it's in the herding group and therefore a working breed (despite how some people might think). And when you have a breed that with a few exceptions is lacking in working ability, the thing that would makse sense (at least to me) would be to 1. Tightly breed on the good individuals (which can be dangerous), or 2. bring in unrelated individuals -- in this case perhaps good dogs from the states or good GSDs that compliment the WSSD standard in all but color (which can be easily fixed within 2 generations).
A huge need for recognition? Hec no. I just think ya'll are wrong and have no problem expressing that, just like you have no problem expressing that you think I'm wrong.
2 Turning up to a couple of sch training sessions does not make a working dog or guarantee a working line(or even passing will guarantees that) neither does it make you an expert (experience and a few bites normally help along in that process)
You're absolutely right. I'm the first to say I dont have a huge amount of experience...just alot opinion based on the experience I do have. I've only been training for SchH for about three years, only done conformation for about three, only been herding for about two, and only been learning about Decoy work, Detection and SAR for the last one year. I've spent the last year working in the Police K9 / Military Working Dog Industry and it's shown me that :
1. Far too many dogs in the industry are great dogs and fit the structural standard of their general breed but arent registered because they have a cross somewhere in their pedigree. Major loss to those breeds.
2. My Ruby has her good points..she's a genetic dream dog : clear on elbows, heart, hips, eyes, hearing, pat lux, MDR1, and Pennhip; she's a fabulous house dog; and she's a decent herding dog...but her nerves aren't great. Not bad...certainly better then many....but not great. She doesnt have a whole lot of prey drive unless she's on sheep and little or no defense.
Set up a Keuring system -- not unlike the German Warmblood Horses have. Wait until the dog has reached maturity and then look at structure, health, genes and temperment and determine whether or not the dog brings something to the WSS gene pool. This could be done with Whites imported from non-FCI affiliate clubs such as AWSA in the US, as well as with outstanding examples of the GSD breed that fit the structural standard of the WSSD. For the dogs that are approved, they can then be listed in a stock registry that is approved for breeding to the main registry...and they and their offspring can remain in the stock registry until they have three generations of an approved registry or white in their background. This way you bring in dogs with fabulous temperment, fabulous genes, and good ability without hurting the structure. Where's the harm?
I dont really see the contradiction. I really dont feel like standards are a bad thing except when they're used to harm the breed....sadly it seems like 90% of the time they're used to harm a breed O,o
It's pretty easy to make things like like a contradiction when you pull them out of context...but the problem is it's generally pretty easy to put them back in.
1 I don’t know how this got onto working but obviously you have a huge need for recognition ( hint –earn it)
It got into working because it seems like the majority of the whites are lacking...and it's in the herding group and therefore a working breed (despite how some people might think). And when you have a breed that with a few exceptions is lacking in working ability, the thing that would makse sense (at least to me) would be to 1. Tightly breed on the good individuals (which can be dangerous), or 2. bring in unrelated individuals -- in this case perhaps good dogs from the states or good GSDs that compliment the WSSD standard in all but color (which can be easily fixed within 2 generations).
A huge need for recognition? Hec no. I just think ya'll are wrong and have no problem expressing that, just like you have no problem expressing that you think I'm wrong.
2 Turning up to a couple of sch training sessions does not make a working dog or guarantee a working line(or even passing will guarantees that) neither does it make you an expert (experience and a few bites normally help along in that process)
You're absolutely right. I'm the first to say I dont have a huge amount of experience...just alot opinion based on the experience I do have. I've only been training for SchH for about three years, only done conformation for about three, only been herding for about two, and only been learning about Decoy work, Detection and SAR for the last one year. I've spent the last year working in the Police K9 / Military Working Dog Industry and it's shown me that :
1. Far too many dogs in the industry are great dogs and fit the structural standard of their general breed but arent registered because they have a cross somewhere in their pedigree. Major loss to those breeds.
2. My Ruby has her good points..she's a genetic dream dog : clear on elbows, heart, hips, eyes, hearing, pat lux, MDR1, and Pennhip; she's a fabulous house dog; and she's a decent herding dog...but her nerves aren't great. Not bad...certainly better then many....but not great. She doesnt have a whole lot of prey drive unless she's on sheep and little or no defense.
by Ceph on 10 December 2009 - 17:12
3 If you actually knew what a working dog was You wouldn’t stick up a picture of an agitated dog ,tied to a lamp post, with REAL DOGS DANCE (get a life) What sort of age group and mentality of people are you selling your pups too because I really cant see any professional handler taking that seriously
LMAO -- first you pull my comments out of context and then you attack me and my picture. Too FUNNY! That picture is one of the few where my Ruby was really on the ball...and I'm at the end of the leash, not a lamp post. It was a fun cutesy avatar that I put together for myself, but I shall move it if it really offends you. I'll go ahead and change it for ya!
Oh, and oops, you made an ASSumption! Firstly -- I dont breed. Did I say I did? I'd very much like too, but I dont know that I'll breed Ruby unless I can find a really fabulous stud that I will improve on her bad points -- namely her nerve and drive. It's a HUGE disapointment for me because I've spent alot of time and money training in sport, training in herding, earning her conformation title, and testing her health.
4The whites are going up against the gsd s ,Dobermans ,rotties ,malinois collies labs etc
The armed forces ,the police ,security services ETC have already got a preference for the dogs they are using Trying to convince anyone to change their tools , if they are happy with them is a huge struggle and REAL DOGS DANCE isn’t going to cut it . Also you will be competing against yourselves, the amount of whites coming on line as working dogs is truly impressive, I just hope you’ve got the market for all these highly motivated prey driven puppies that are being produced !..
LMAO. Yer funny. You keep going back to that silly picture but like I said I dont feel as if I could breed my "real" dog right now...I need more out of a WSSD then what she offers as of right now.
You know -- it's funny. I work with the armed forces, the police, and security services. One : Frequently people pick their own PSDs here in the US and will generally go based off what works...basically the GSD, Malinois and Dutchie (the rotties and dobermans have generally been ruined). However you do see off breeds in some departments...for example bouviers, Schnauzers and SHOCKER, yes, some WSDs -- though for the most part they tend to be on cadaver teams.
5Glitches in dna I thought were extremely rare .The general held believe is white on white gives white. It would now appear there are two cases here in Europe not following that principle Surely as an expert in genetics Your first thought should be------ there’s a hole in the fence
Genetic glitches are rare but not that rare. It's happened once or twice in the USA. Think of it as a birthmark -- a genetic glitch that causes a portion of the skin (or in this case fur) to be a different color. And considering the sheer number of white puppies being produced around the world 4 or 5 out of that number is gonna be a weeeeee small percentage.
LMAO -- first you pull my comments out of context and then you attack me and my picture. Too FUNNY! That picture is one of the few where my Ruby was really on the ball...and I'm at the end of the leash, not a lamp post. It was a fun cutesy avatar that I put together for myself, but I shall move it if it really offends you. I'll go ahead and change it for ya!
Oh, and oops, you made an ASSumption! Firstly -- I dont breed. Did I say I did? I'd very much like too, but I dont know that I'll breed Ruby unless I can find a really fabulous stud that I will improve on her bad points -- namely her nerve and drive. It's a HUGE disapointment for me because I've spent alot of time and money training in sport, training in herding, earning her conformation title, and testing her health.
4The whites are going up against the gsd s ,Dobermans ,rotties ,malinois collies labs etc
The armed forces ,the police ,security services ETC have already got a preference for the dogs they are using Trying to convince anyone to change their tools , if they are happy with them is a huge struggle and REAL DOGS DANCE isn’t going to cut it . Also you will be competing against yourselves, the amount of whites coming on line as working dogs is truly impressive, I just hope you’ve got the market for all these highly motivated prey driven puppies that are being produced !..
LMAO. Yer funny. You keep going back to that silly picture but like I said I dont feel as if I could breed my "real" dog right now...I need more out of a WSSD then what she offers as of right now.
You know -- it's funny. I work with the armed forces, the police, and security services. One : Frequently people pick their own PSDs here in the US and will generally go based off what works...basically the GSD, Malinois and Dutchie (the rotties and dobermans have generally been ruined). However you do see off breeds in some departments...for example bouviers, Schnauzers and SHOCKER, yes, some WSDs -- though for the most part they tend to be on cadaver teams.
5Glitches in dna I thought were extremely rare .The general held believe is white on white gives white. It would now appear there are two cases here in Europe not following that principle Surely as an expert in genetics Your first thought should be------ there’s a hole in the fence
Genetic glitches are rare but not that rare. It's happened once or twice in the USA. Think of it as a birthmark -- a genetic glitch that causes a portion of the skin (or in this case fur) to be a different color. And considering the sheer number of white puppies being produced around the world 4 or 5 out of that number is gonna be a weeeeee small percentage.
by Ceph on 10 December 2009 - 17:12
6 considering you in the US have basicly had exclusive rights to the whites for the last 60 years and all the European dogs are descendents of your tireless efforts. The breed should be so well established by now as one of the top working dogs, that people like me who work to a different philosophy and who produce on average 20-25 pups a year should be of absolute no threat what so ever
Dude -- I'm by far in the minority. I didnt say that the whites in the US were any better or worse then the ones in Europe...except we may have alot more herding dogs then there...we have fewer sport dogs though. What we do have is a population of dogs that are basically the same but several generations removed.
My point about American Dogs had very little if anything to do with working. I think everyone is equal opporutnity screwing up there which is why I'm a proponent of bringing in more GSDs. My point about American Dogs is that it's 1. Kinda dumb to exclude them from your gene pool because they follow essentially the same standard and will give you a larger gene pool to choose from, and 2. Kinda dumb to call AWSA dogs mongrels when 99.9% of ya'lls dogs are related to them.
Holy cow! 20-25 pups a year! That's alot! I subscribe to the philosophy that you should breed to improve...and when making improvements I'd want to keep a pup or two back to improve my own lines. I wouldnt breed a whole lot more then a litter a year to two years if I were to find the right dogs to breed...just because I'd run out of room trying to improve my own lines!
And deary -- it's not that you're a threat to me...like I said...not breeding right now because I dont think I'd be able to produce what I want. What I think you're a threat to (and again, just my opinion) is the breed as a whole...and that would be the case whether or not I was breeding because the number of pups you pump out would be almost 8x more then I.
7 Andreas, your last question should be to cate/ceph she is ,after all the expert in genetics !
Leave them. It's a birthmark. Big Whop. If it was an actual allele then there would he a HELL of alot more white shepherds (and yellow labs) with that trait. [And if you dont understand why I threw yellow labs into that -- you probably need to do some research into your own breed.]
8 What have you got against Chihuahuas??????,,
Only that I keep getting bit by nervy, fear biting members of the breed. I know of a few in Holland that are really nice...but again another one of those generally wasted breeds. IN FACT, I've only been bit by one crummy GSD (without equipment)but have been bitten by multiple dogs in the companion group (those dogs that are supposed to be good family dogs?) teaching obedience classes. The ones that need the most problem solving help due to genetically bad temperment have almost always been companion dogs in my experience...some even from show lines. Gads...what could that mean?
~Cate
PS : changed my avatar juuuuust for you. That was at a MWD (Military Working Dog for those that are unaware) seminar my company hosted...I'm the one on the ground being bit :-) I rather enjoy Decoy work...not great at it yet, but improving!
Dude -- I'm by far in the minority. I didnt say that the whites in the US were any better or worse then the ones in Europe...except we may have alot more herding dogs then there...we have fewer sport dogs though. What we do have is a population of dogs that are basically the same but several generations removed.
My point about American Dogs had very little if anything to do with working. I think everyone is equal opporutnity screwing up there which is why I'm a proponent of bringing in more GSDs. My point about American Dogs is that it's 1. Kinda dumb to exclude them from your gene pool because they follow essentially the same standard and will give you a larger gene pool to choose from, and 2. Kinda dumb to call AWSA dogs mongrels when 99.9% of ya'lls dogs are related to them.
Holy cow! 20-25 pups a year! That's alot! I subscribe to the philosophy that you should breed to improve...and when making improvements I'd want to keep a pup or two back to improve my own lines. I wouldnt breed a whole lot more then a litter a year to two years if I were to find the right dogs to breed...just because I'd run out of room trying to improve my own lines!
And deary -- it's not that you're a threat to me...like I said...not breeding right now because I dont think I'd be able to produce what I want. What I think you're a threat to (and again, just my opinion) is the breed as a whole...and that would be the case whether or not I was breeding because the number of pups you pump out would be almost 8x more then I.
7 Andreas, your last question should be to cate/ceph she is ,after all the expert in genetics !
Leave them. It's a birthmark. Big Whop. If it was an actual allele then there would he a HELL of alot more white shepherds (and yellow labs) with that trait. [And if you dont understand why I threw yellow labs into that -- you probably need to do some research into your own breed.]
8 What have you got against Chihuahuas??????,,
Only that I keep getting bit by nervy, fear biting members of the breed. I know of a few in Holland that are really nice...but again another one of those generally wasted breeds. IN FACT, I've only been bit by one crummy GSD (without equipment)but have been bitten by multiple dogs in the companion group (those dogs that are supposed to be good family dogs?) teaching obedience classes. The ones that need the most problem solving help due to genetically bad temperment have almost always been companion dogs in my experience...some even from show lines. Gads...what could that mean?
~Cate
PS : changed my avatar juuuuust for you. That was at a MWD (Military Working Dog for those that are unaware) seminar my company hosted...I'm the one on the ground being bit :-) I rather enjoy Decoy work...not great at it yet, but improving!
by Fridrich on 15 December 2009 - 08:12
Cehp or Cate or whatever you are,
this comment is just for you (and has nothing to do with BBS).I cannot believe I waste my time on people like you - those who have no class in debates and lower themselves to calling people names as you do to me and Trebons.
I guess when people start becoming desperate and out of facts or reasonable arguments they need to do that. Or people with no social intelligence, unfortunally. Or maybe both.
If you noticed (which I am very sure you haven´t) we are sharing opinions in this forum and although we may not agree with other people we are still polite and do not have to lower ourselves to be rude and offensive to the other people as you do.
I guess you will not understand what I am talking about but it does not surprise me in your case at all.
By the way, my dear, I could call you such names and even worse ones if you wish, and in more languages you could ever name. But I would not want to lower myself to your level of discussion. So, chill and get a grip on yourself, be polite and stop calling people names, you are embaressing yourself and people who you may want to represent....
MF
P.S. In your comment about family dogs, wow... if a family dog definition is as you described in your comment, then bloody hell... I call my dogs family dogs and they have and pass successfully obedience tests, they are in a dog rescue team and track, all that with no problem. But I still call their nature a family dog. I guess the family dog in your books is a dog that does not leave a house, or whatever nonsense you said above. THAT IS NOT MY DEFINITION, BUT YOURS. Trebons is right, you are full of contradictions.... just to have a fight - I am afraid it is a diagnose, not a debate, I think.
this comment is just for you (and has nothing to do with BBS).I cannot believe I waste my time on people like you - those who have no class in debates and lower themselves to calling people names as you do to me and Trebons.
I guess when people start becoming desperate and out of facts or reasonable arguments they need to do that. Or people with no social intelligence, unfortunally. Or maybe both.
If you noticed (which I am very sure you haven´t) we are sharing opinions in this forum and although we may not agree with other people we are still polite and do not have to lower ourselves to be rude and offensive to the other people as you do.
I guess you will not understand what I am talking about but it does not surprise me in your case at all.
By the way, my dear, I could call you such names and even worse ones if you wish, and in more languages you could ever name. But I would not want to lower myself to your level of discussion. So, chill and get a grip on yourself, be polite and stop calling people names, you are embaressing yourself and people who you may want to represent....
MF
P.S. In your comment about family dogs, wow... if a family dog definition is as you described in your comment, then bloody hell... I call my dogs family dogs and they have and pass successfully obedience tests, they are in a dog rescue team and track, all that with no problem. But I still call their nature a family dog. I guess the family dog in your books is a dog that does not leave a house, or whatever nonsense you said above. THAT IS NOT MY DEFINITION, BUT YOURS. Trebons is right, you are full of contradictions.... just to have a fight - I am afraid it is a diagnose, not a debate, I think.
by Ceph on 17 December 2009 - 20:12
Fridrich --
First CEPH are my initials...Catherine is my first name. Cate for short.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I have no problem pointing out the flaws in other peoples arguments...just like others have no problem pointing out the flaws in mine. I especially have no problem putting my words back into the context they were removed from.
I find it hysterical when you say things like this : "cannot believe I waste my time on people like you - those who have no class in debates and lower themselves to calling people names as you do to me and Trebons." and then follow it with things like this : "I guess when people start becoming desperate and out of facts or reasonable arguments they need to do that. Or people with no social intelligence, unfortunally. Or maybe both." Aren't you lowering yourself to my so-called level at that point? Or is calling me desperate, out of facts, and socially unintelligent not an insult where you come from?
Sooo....where you come from it's considered polite to pull things out of context? How about telling people they are confused? Questioning their experience? Mocking their pictures and them? Or saying they arent thinking? How about name calling? These are things both you and Trebons have said to me. Sorry dear....but when you make an argument using the very same tactics that I theoretically use, then you pretty much loose credibility. That's just my opinion though.
When I argue I am very, very direct with how I feel. That means I'm probably going to say things that are an expression of my opinion and that arent very nice. I'm telling you the truth as I see it. It probably doesnt make me alot of friends...but at least people know where I am coming from.
If you're refering to the ASSumption -- sorry. We have a saying in the US -- that when you assume all you do is make an Ass out of you and Me. I make them too. I'm pretty sure that makes me an asshole too...but I'll admit that freely most days. And an assumption was clearly made.
I'm sorry to inform you darlin', but you already did lower yourself to that level...and I believe more times in one paragraph then I over four posts. Oops. Sorry 
Hey -- my comment about family dogs is absolutely related to my experience. Dogs that are working dogs should also be family dogs -- but they are still working dogs first. Family dogs are at their base little more then dogs that can get along with their family. My general opinion of a good family dog is a dog that doesnt chew the furniture, has enough OB to listen, and defecates outside. Not a whole lot to that. Obedience tests are fine...but dogs dont really need decent nerves for that...at least its something. Dog rescue -- SAR? That is a job if the dog is active in it and going out and searching for people. That is a test of nerve and I tend to think folks who do that with their stock are generally doing pretty good.
Perhaps I agree with you on your comment some....it has some merit.
by Ironbabe on 18 December 2009 - 12:12
could we come back to the topic please? all other personal things could be discussed via PN function....
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