Question - Page 6

Hello,

from a publically available site - no comment needed:

http://www.surefireshepherds.com/lilith-zorro04.htm 

This is what FCI is trying to  avoid in BBS

MF

Hello,

there was a puppy in Germany this year which looks very similar. It was not in a FCI kennel, but the bloodline is common in the FCI, too. And there were no coloured dogs in many generations.

Bye,

Andreas

Hi Andreas
I do sympathies with you I really do !!! BUT I THINK! I MIGHT HAVE THE SOLUTION FOR YOU!!!!

Move to France
Under the protection of the biggest and most powerful club in Europe, the acbb (or is it the bbf, they are calling themselves this week) never mind, ----what’s in a name? (Come to that! what’s in a pedigree?) But here, under their protection and with their encouragement you can rip up the standard ,burn the circular, and Import as many gsd as you please ,Mix and match with the bbs to your hearts content and be guaranteed a pedigree

SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE ------but there’s more
IF as you say white on white will throw a black No need to worry the club has its own judges CONFIRMATION NOT A PROBLEM
( you might have a problem with the experts regarding your statement though !!!)

SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE---------------but there’s more
A board of highly regarded experts in the breed ! that selflessly and tirelessly have set standards too such a level , as of yet never seen before within the Breed and now with the added bonus of the block vote from Spain and Belgium full control of the bbi

SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE-----------------but there’s more
The Austrians can use your dogs, with no interference from that tiresome Austrian kennel club

SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE-------------------- but there’s more
Vacancy for an up and running elavage dept 65

Just an idea ,maybe something to think about

Trebons --

  I'm a little confused by your writing I'm afraid.  Let me try to address it point by point, and if I get something wrong please let me know.

  Firstly -- I imagine that if I were to take a series of silhouettes of the GSD and WSSD then you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between some of the serious working line GSDs and the WSSDs.  You would probably have serious difficulty telling the difference between an Ambred white and a WSSD.  Thank god the whites all look different from the GSD showlines, but saying that the WSDs in the USA, the working line GSDs and the WSSD have a vastly different structure is horse puckey.

  Another point I tried to raise is not mixing breeds but coming up with a system similiar to the warmbloods in Germany.  Approving dogs whose structure matches that of the WSSD but whose temperment and genetics will improve upon what we have.  You were right and wrong on that point.  The temperment of the WSSD is different from the working GSD -- with the exception of some of the serious working WSSD lines it is becoming more like that of the showline GSDs.  Weak, useless, and nervy.  That is a sad state of affairs.

  The definition of the word mongrel then applies to the entire breed.  Or maybe it doesnt.  Remember where the WSSD comes from.  Since nearly all WSSDs come from the whites in the USA, then mating them back to their predecessors would preclude them from being mongrels.

  HOLY COW -- what is so bad about that?  You want useless nervy animals?  Let me tell you something...a nervy animal does no good for the family.  You start breeding away from working lines and towards pet dogs and you will ruin the temperment of the breed.  Want a pet?  Get a chihuahua. 

  Working line dogs are not unfriendly towards children -- in fact, a good, strong temperment should make them better around children because the dog will be more confident.

  The WSSD is also in the herding group.  Not the pet group.  Perhaps you and your buddies can have that changed so that you can get you perfect, big, fluffy, pet dogs who are incapable of anything.  But until that point try to remember a herding animal is a working animal.  And a working animal needs to have a good temperment and good nerves. 

  Dear -- what else were they going to register their dogs as?  Nothing?

  I've become very jaded by the white community.  I happen to like the dutch KNPV model mainly because I can get a good family dog from KNPV lines who can live in my house, be comfortable around my friends, and still have a good strong drive and ability to work.  And I get to avoid all the annoying preachy people who freak about standards to the detriment of their breed.  Do I wish I could get that out of a registered dog?  HELL YEAH!  But registrations come with standards, and standards who do not take function into account ruin more then they help.

  I mean -- I actually like the WSSD standard.  What I dont like is breeders who think pets are better then functional dogs.  I think those people destroy breeds and have HUGE blinders on.

  Darling -- read my post.  What I support is a Keuring of dogs who would improve upon the BBS.  Dogs whose structure fit the BBS standard (yes the exhist) but whose temperment improves upon that.  The warmblood system.  It works.

  Oh yeah -- the Quarter Horse frequently brings in TBs.  Doesnt change the fact that he was one horse that quite seriously hurt the breed.  A very pretty thing.  Fit the standar

Fit the standard to a T.  Did well in confromation...but no good as a performance horse.  HMMM...maybe that should tell you something about standards and conformation and the like.  It doesnt always help things.

American lines really arent that different for the WSSD unless they've had the GSD introduced.  Then they are.  Where they help is that they are five or six generations removed....How many lines in Europe can claim the same....or better yet...how many good lines can claim the same.  Not many I would imagine.

Actually -- I think your in the majority.  The same kind of majority that has ruined every showline breed to date (for example, the showline GSD.)  I understand...really I do...it's alot less time and effort to breed a pet dog.  Less time and effort means less money and more time to produce cute little pet puppies...which in the end means you make more money.  I just happen to think it's better to put in the effort, the time, and the money to breed the BEST...maybe breeding fewer litters, maybe making less money, but in the end helping the breed rather then hurting it.

I think your confused BTW.  The UWSC, AWSA and WSCC standards are all essentially the same.  The other standards are all GSD standards.  I actually am a proponent of adopting the FCI standard...it really isnt that much different other then ours is more specific to prevent showline issues.  However...the kicker is we wont be registering our dogs anyway because the FCI wont let us.  So it doesnt change anything.  My FCI female is registered with AWSA and not with the AKC...as are others...but it didnt strengthen our argument a whit.  Bummer, that.

~Cate

Hi Trebons, it is a good idea, I like it LOL....

BTW, I would like to know what will the Berger Blanc Suisse breeders do with the pups with black marks (I am asking the FCI, that is European breeders, no offense to American breeders, but your rules are a bit different as I can see)? What breed is that kind of pup going to represent? A BBS, or GSD or some other breed? What will the BBS breeders do to such pups, sell it with no pedigrees, if so, that is against the FCI rules for breeding also..??? In that case, they are not only breaking the Circulair 07/2007, but also the breeding rules for FCI breeders!!!!

I do not know any serious European GSD breeder taking such pup and "refreshing" their GSD bloodlines?!?

Andreas, you mentioned that a similar pup was born to a German breeder. Well, if it is a litter that I am thinking of, then the grandparents were coloured GSD, specially on the father´s side. Unfortunatelly, you will not find the photos online anymore. They were there during summer though. They have been carefully and safely removed ;)   That is why it does not suprise me, that such colouring occurred in those cases. Both parents delivered and strengthened a coloured bloodline in 2nd and 3rd generations.

This is no helping the breed, I am sorry, this is ruining it, having black strips, dots or marks on BBS is no helping the breed. Well, at least not in FCI books. 

Cate, you´d better read the FCI standard again, since BBS ARE a FAMILY BREED....
Quote:
......Fci standard 347 berger blanc suisse
UTILIZATION : Family and working companion dog with distinctive friendly nature to children......(thanks Nick)

And honestly, you are so wrong about the effort and time, boy oh boy..... It is much harder for a breeder  to breed friendly and safe "PETS" for families, children and the surrounding, than working dogs. And that is what the BBS are, at least here, in Europe.

"This is no helping the breed, I am sorry, this is ruining it, having black strips, dots or marks on BBS is no helping the breed. Well, at least not in FCI books."

Fridrich you silly goose you...you're showing some genetic ignorance here.  Black strips, dots or marks have nothing to do with colored dogs in the background....just like having a white in the pedigree has nothing to do with decreasing the intensity of the tan in the GSD.

The Extension Locus Masks all color in the coat...All.Of.It.  Except in cases of genetic oopses where the gene may not cover the entire area.  That's going to be a genetic mutation unrelated to who and what color is in a dog's pedigree.

I studied Coat Color Genetics very closely at University....it's something I am really quite good at and have dedicated alot of time too.

~Cate

Hello,

no, I think we talk about another litter. You can still find the photos in the internet and there were no coloured dogs in many generations. So what would you do with this puppies?

Bye,

Andreas

CEPH/cate
Yep you are most defiantly confused no doubt about it You don’t read what’s been posted and jump straight in without thought You are just one contradiction after another THE FOLLOWING, I know is taken slightly out of context ,the emphasis on the word slightly

You wrote
You and your standard are riding the wave of hard working people who fought for their mongrels against a standard that people just like you were enamored with. People who overcame an enormous amount of pressure to keep the white coat alive and thriving.

Please remember to keep all that in mind when you talk about the importance of a standard. Because in the end...without people who fought a standard, this wonderful breed would never have existed. It makes far more sense to fight for what is better then it does to follow rules that in the end only restrict and harm.
You also wrote
I actually am a proponent of adopting the FCI standard...it really isnt that much different other then ours is more specific to prevent showline issues. However...the kicker is we wont be registering our dogs anyway because the FCI wont let us. So it doesnt change anything. My FCI female is registered with AWSA and not with the AKC...as are others...but it didnt strengthen our argument a whit. Bummer, that.

Virtually everything you write is a contradiction , but be that as it may ,a couple of points I would like to make

1 I don’t know how this got onto working but obviously you have a huge need for recognition ( hint –earn it)

2 Turning up to a couple of sch training sessions does not make a working dog or guarantee a working line(or even passing will guarantees that) neither does it make you an expert (experience and a few bites normally help along in that process)

3 If you actually knew what a working dog was You wouldn’t stick up a picture of an agitated dog ,tied to a lamp post, with REAL DOGS DANCE (get a life) What sort of age group and mentality of people are you selling your pups too because I really cant see any professional handler taking that seriously

4The whites are going up against the gsd s ,Dobermans ,rotties ,malinois collies labs etc
The armed forces ,the police ,security services ETC have already got a preference for the dogs they are using Trying to convince anyone to change their tools , if they are happy with them is a huge struggle and REAL DOGS DANCE isn’t going to cut it . Also you will be competing against  yourselves, the amount of whites coming on line as working dogs is truly impressive, I just hope you’ve got the market for all these highly motivated prey driven puppies that are being produced !..

5Glitches in dna I thought were extremely rare .The general held believe is white on white gives white. It would now appear there are two cases here in Europe not following that principle Surely as an expert in genetics Your first thought should be------ there’s a hole in the fence

6 considering you in the US have basicly had exclusive rights to the whites for the last 60 years and all the European dogs are descendents of your tireless efforts. The breed should be so well established by now as one of the top working dogs, that people like me who work to a different philosophy and who produce on average 20-25 pups a year should be of absolute no threat what so ever 

7 Andreas, your last question should be to cate/ceph she is ,after all the expert in genetics !

8 What have you got against Chihuahuas??????,,


















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