Question - Page 5

Hello,

perhaps you don´t have an answer. Please tell me why this was possible in Germany and nobody cared?

Perhaps you should stop breeding with your female then I would believe what you write. The father of your female has a dark dog in his pedigree so the FCI circular says nobody is allowed to breed with him.  Oh no, I forget he was born before 2003, you are lucky ;-) So you don´t have to care.

Bye,

Andreas

ack...

Much better to have some warmblood sense and instead of pulling in other breeds willy nilly -- holding tests, Keurings, and ensuring that only the best genetics, temperments, drives, nerves and structure are brought in...only brining in those dogs that are an asset to the breed and the standard....that fit the standard in every way save color...but improve on those things that aren't dictated (and thus can be left on the wayside) by standard such as temperment and drive and genetics.  In two generations you wouldnt even know by looking at the progeny -- except in noting a marked improvement in those things not dictated by standard. 

I understand you have stated your opinion...but I think what myself and Andreas are saying...in perhaps different ways...is that you have blinders on.  You're so focused on the little picture that you dont see the whole.  You are much like the GSD breeders who saw to the destruction of the white lines in Europe...a destruction and removal that lasted until the 60's when an American woman brought some of her American-Bred White Shepherds to Europe...from a country that decided to fight a standard to keep a breed alive.  You and your standard are riding the wave of hard working people who fought for their mongrels against a standard that people just like you were enamored with.  People who overcame an enormous amount of pressure to keep the white coat alive and thriving.

Please remember to keep all that in mind when you talk about the importance of a standard.  Because in the end...without people who fought a standard, this wonderful breed would never have existed.  It makes far more sense to fight for what is better then it does to follow rules that in the end only restrict and harm.

~Cate

I am sorry Andreas, but all I can do about your comment is smile. Do you know when was this breed recognised by FCI here in Europe? Well, it was in 2003, so since then it is organise under FCI rules. Do you know what was this breed before the year 2003? It was called American Canadian shepherd and as a breed it was not recognised by FCI, thus not regulated by FCI rules.

You address me as someone who made the rules, created the FCI standard and the Circulair. If you want answers to your questions, go ahead and ask the right institutions.

If you dislike or disagree, why don´t you do something about it on an official level? Why don´t you ask the country of origin to change things. But going behind the rules and breeching them is not the way. I am pointing out a fact that whether you agree with the rules or not,  if you do not follow them you break them. I believe that if any kennel is a member of some institutionion, which helped their kennels exist, then there is a need to obey their rules. And your kennel is under FCI, isnt it? Well, then that is your answer. You do not breed in the US where the breeders do not belong to FCI, so they can breed WSS differently.

I have no reason not to breed with my female. Unlike Obi and his offsprings. And again, I did not make the rule. If the Circulaire extended it to the 4th generation, then, yes, I would not breed on her. But one and the last time, I did not make the content of the rule. So you are "crying on the wrong grave" here. If you want a change and satisfaction, lead a different battle and go for it with FCI and the Swiss. This forum is for opinions and sharing them. It does not solve anything and cannot give you the answers you are fishing for.

All I can give you, is my opinion. Everybody has the right to do that. This time, my opinion differs from yours, but so what, that is the key of debates. What you want is satisfaction and I think I even understand why you would want that (since you are the owner of Obi), but I cannot do that for you.

Cate, I have been involved with horses and their breeding for the past 15 years (warmbloods), so thanks for your "lesson". Don´t get me wrong, I know and understand what your ideas and opinions are, I understand what you are saying, but I do not agree with you. That is my choice, my preference. As I said previously, it is not me who you need to convince.

The US breeders - my big thanks to you and your work for this breed in history, when thanks to you this breed survived. When here in Europe the White Shepherds were liquidated, they were transported back to the US and Canadian breeders who continued breeding them. Until 2003 they were called American Canadian Shepherd in Europe. However, this changed in 2003 when it was registered in Europe, under FCI and recognised as a Swiss breed. We are not ashamed to have such dogs in the bloodlines, at all. I am speaking for many European breeders, who however, insist on following the FCI, since WSS is an FCI breed since 2003.

MF

PS. Yes, you are right when you say I am lucky about my female. But that is not my achievement, nor hard work, nor a breeding programme (if you have a problem with the female, write to her breeder, I am sure you know who the breeder is). It is my luck. What I use the luck for though is the direction of my future breeding decisions. And that is the difference between my breeding actions and some other breeders in Europe. I do not agree that I have blinders on. I just happen to agree with the Circulaire. If I did not, like you guys, I would not spend so much time and energy on these forums, but I would take action which could help me change things - officially, not behind the rules unofficially. But that's just me.

Hey Fridrich --

  First off -- if you read my post you'd see that my "lesson" didnt have anything to do with Warmbloods.  Have you also been breeding QHs for 15 years?  Are you familiar with HYPP?

  If you are not ashamed to have those dogs in your lines then perhaps you should choose your words more wisely. Calling them mongrels shows that you do in fact have a disdain for those people and dogs who made your breed possible.

  Again -- I really dont understand on the insistance on following the FCI.  Is it because it is easier?  Like I said...if not for people who DIDNT follow the FCI the WSS would never have existed.

  But I suppose that is conveniently easy to forget when things go easily.

~Cate

Hey Cate,

I know it must be frustrating for you when people do not agree with you, but that is the way it is when people discuss things.

If you do not understand why I find following the FCI rules for European FCI breeders important,  I cannot help you anymore. I explained it in my previous comments very clearly and I am not going to waste my time doing it all over again.

If you wrote what you just did, it looks that you either did not read my comments properly or you do not want to understand. One way, or the other, it is your deal and it is fine by me.

I indicated clearly why and who I called cross breeds or mongrels and who not. It is all in my previous comments too.

Cheers,

MF

Dear -- It must be very frustrating for you when people point out the rather large holes in your argument.  I did read your post...in fact I read them all..and then decided to run a search on the page to make sure I didnt miss you mentioning mongrels anywhere else.  This is exactly what you said :

...Besides the fact that I am an FCI breeder (whether one likes it or not, if the kennel is FCI and that institution has some rules, then you are obliged to follow them) - besides that there are so many beautiful WSS who already have white ancestors min. up to their 4 or 5th generation, and who did not just automatically become WSS just because they are white, although born to German Shepherds, because that is the main problem. I think that many WSS owners do not realise and appreciate what they have at home and devalue their own and very good WSS by mating them with mongrels.

Regarding Obi: Obi was a mistake and the whole WSS society could have put that behind, by not allowing him and his offsprings breed and the whole issue could have been over. But what is happening now: there are new, recent and even conscious imports of mongrels from the States (non FCI country) and elsewhere, whose parents or grandparents, ie. the 2. or 3. generations, are coloured. Why? To me and many other WSS breeders I know, this is not undrestandable and clear at all. It has nothing to do with Obi anymore.

Did I miss anything else?  Can you please point it out to me if I did.  Here -- you called dogs bred in the US mongrels.  Those same dogs that are related to your own...those same dogs that ARE the foundation stock for your breed.  I just thought it important to point out that when you call our dogs whom are QUITE related to your own, mongrels, you call your own dogs mongrels.

I understand why you follow the rules and refuse to fight for something better.  I said before in my last post.  It's easier.  I understand...I really do.  I just happen to disagree.  Maybe that's because we're still having to fight here in the US....because things for us regarding the whites have never been easy.

~Cate

What a  shame when a beautiful, correct conformation, correct temperment dog is born to colored German Shepherd Parents, but not allowed to be a German Shepherd because of that breed rules (as far as showing anyhow, and breeding in many countries)... yet neither that dog, nor any of the possible progeny who may be as good or better than the dogs registered thru FCI as a Swiss White Shepherd....   Although genetically the latter dog is of 100% genetic GSD DNA. 

I know that's the rule... but it's sad for people who have loved these dogs for the past 50+ years as White German Shepherd Dogs...   *sigh*  So  much of the genetic pool closed off to us foever.

yes its true the bbs is descendent from the gsd,but the simple fact is that the bbs is on its way to being fully recognized as a distinct breed It has its own standard which varies differently to the gsd both in appearance and character profile especially the character profile(a big difference their)

1. White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (347) CANNOT be mated with white German Shepherd Dogs (GSD, standard 166) since they are two distinct breeds with different breed standards
Clearly to mix the two races will produce a mongrel
Definition of the word mongrel  A dog whose parents are of different breeds
A dog of mixed breed

FCI CIRCULAR
This was a reminder sent out by the FCI it wasn’t a new set of rules , in 2003 when most of us received OR APPLIED for an fci affixes We knew the rules the regulations and the standard and by applying for an fci affix we accepted those rules and standards we also accepted that it is a different breed it is no longer a german shepherd BUT A BREED IN ITS OWN RIGHT
A question for you,ceph you wrote…….
It's causing (at least in my opinion) a movement away from the working oriented breed to a more pet oriented breed (certainly not the case all the time, but it seems to be a more frequent trend

What is so bad about that?????? Family first
Fci standard 347 berger blanc suisse
UTILIZATION : Family and working companion dog with distinctive friendly nature to children;

FCI standard 166 GSD
UTILIZATION : Versatile working, watch and professional working dog.





You also wrote
I understand you have stated your opinion...but I think what myself and Andreas are saying...in perhaps different ways...is that you have blinders on. You're so focused on the little picture that you dont see the whole. You are much like the GSD breeders who saw to the destruction of the white lines in Europe...a destruction and removal that lasted until the 60's when an American woman brought some of her American-Bred White Shepherds to Europe...from a country that decided to fight a standard to keep a breed alive.
Surly it is the other way round , isn’t that exactly what you are supporting THE BBS EXISTS ,IF THE BREEDERS DIDN’T LIKE THE STANDARD OR THE RULES THEY DIDN’T HAVE TO REGISTER THERE DOGS AS BBS(but they did didn’t they) No one was forced to become a bbs breeder but obviously a lot of people agreed with the standard and the move away from the gsd and signed up
But by continually crossing with gsd the bbs will die out ----IS THAT WHAT YOU AND ANDREAS ARE SUPPORTING ??????????
The Quarter horse
A fascinating story the quarter horse and a very good example of what can go wrong , now I am sure you will correct me if I mistaken(ceph) but Impressive was the offspring of a thoroughbred and a quarter horse (crossing two different breeds in other words) and all cases of HYPP are linked to Impressive. A history lesson perhaps ! (or history repeating itself?)
The major argument for the imports from America seems to be NEW BLOOD LINES when I look at the pedigrees they all seem to be related so why have 5 of the same they are no longer new, just different variations of the same and OBI WAS THE ORIGINAL so that argument is invalid ,is it not!!! ?
How many blood lines are available here in Europe …….ANYONE???
Obviously I am in the minority ( or the quite majority???)with these thoughts and also against breaking the rules of the FCI -----but surely ,if it is going to happen, which it is !There should be some restrictions placed on the breeding programs for these dogs, to ensure that it is only blood that is being transferred and nothing else,It would be disaster for the bbs if some disorder were passed on.
I am

I am surprised the BBI and the special clubs whose members have imported these dogs ,have not introduced some form of restriction already, In fact I think it is grossly negligent on their part
A question to our American friends at present you are fighting to have the whites accepted yes or no You have 2 DIFFERENT BREED STANDARDS AKC, UKC and 4 different clubs akc ukc awsa and the uwsc
Why not adopt the fci breed standard obviously the akc wont accept it ,but why not the others ,and then at least you are breeding to the same standard as FCI countries and by doing so ,wouldn’t that strengthen your argument for a split with the german shepherd club and recognition from the akc

Hello,

as we started to register our dogs in 2003, there were already White Shepherds which had a colourd shepherd in the second or third generation. Many kennel clubs didn´t care about this and now they say you can´t register a White German Shepherd as a White Swiss Shepherd? That´s crazy. Most of the kennel clubs accept the AKC number and you can find many AKC dogs in FCI pedigrees. Look at the White Shepherds with full pedigree, why do they have a full pedigree? Because of the AKC dogs. And of course the FCI can make new rules. But when Obi was registered, this circular was not actual. There were and there are still many not 3 generation white dogs in the breed. But in my opinion all started with Obi and his first weeks in Germany. Nobody cared about him when he was in Finland and nobody cared about the dogs with coloured dogs in their pedigree. Even in Germany and Switzerland you could find this litters. Or take a look at Sweden and the old bloodlines? What will you find?

Bye,

Andreas