Schutzhund trained family protector - Page 6

Did everybody see the article in USA magasine by the breeder of  Wanner-Hohen kennel. He not only a breeder of world class sport/police dogs, but is liscenced to judge police and sport. In essence he says that a sch titled dog is not indicative of a police dog necessarily , and a Sch title is no longer a good test for a breed candidate in GS. He also say that the Koreung as it is done today is also not worthy of discriminating GS that are inadequate for breeding. Years ago, maybe, but today, it is so patterned with such political correct training that many nerve issues are covered up by training and patterning and when exposed to real situations these dogs come up short. Even the over the top prey dogs in many cases(workinglines), have trouble doing real police/personal protection. Those of us who have trained or decoyed for police are aware of this but I get so tired of people telling me what a titled dog will do....Well this man has the pedigree for me to listen to and it coincides with my own experiences.JMO

Misbeeb, it's agood picture it's my eyes that are not so good.  But I see it now.

Don, I have seen displaced aggression with dogs where 2 dogs are inside a house barking at someone outside and 1 dog turns and nails the other dog.  I've seen that mostly with animal aggression.  I had a male GSD that would turn and nail me if I corrected him hard for dog aggression.  We had a little meeting and straightened that out. 

Part of my last post got cut off, which is probably a good thing for anyone who actually thought about reading it.  But, the gist was that our PD wants hard dogs with real aggression.  We want dogs that will bring a fight to a bad guy.  We just reurned a soft dog and replaced him with a dog that a State PD returned for handler aggression.  He gave his first handler 20 stitches and then bit the trainer.  He is a tough rank dog, but the new handler is doing a good job with him.

4pack, from the pictures I've seen of your dog I think he'll do the job.

Jim

Slamdunc. Your is the most sensible post on this topic and i agree with almost all you have to say. But your insight into schutzhund is boll*cks!

Pardon me for saying so but stupid Americans and their police forces are famous for buying titled sports dogs, unseen and wonder why they don't measure up. Perhaps the demand for dogs is overwhelming and there are not enough experienced dog people around to advise and assess. Perhaps in the past they thought buying from Europe was a sure way of getting a good dog and the Europeans were only too happy to unload their crap to you.

SCH is a sport that has a pass as the minimum standard, within that you have a whole range of protection ability. The actual SCH title tells you little about the dog but the process of training and trialling the dog tell you what you need to know about its character. So why the hell buy a dog unless you've worked it and assessed it properly. Why blame the sport, I blame the idiot handing over the cash. Furthermore, a dog that bites full, calm but not hard and without fight will not be scoring V or even SG.

The best dogs and best breeding programmes remain schutzhund based. There are many breeders who breed for balanced drives, hardness, fight and courage using schutzhund as their evaluation tool. Name me a few kennels that have a "reality" base? The are almost none because you need to have an objective way to assess your dog not "my dog is as hard nails crap". If I had a dollar for the number of times I've been told that by "reality/street" trainers and police handlers, when you see their dogs they are just piles of sh*t. In the UK, all the foundation programmes for police breeding have been schutzhund dogs with the odd influence of KNPV. We have had many sports dog successfully converted from sport to street, including recall off bite, rear guard, passive attack, muzzle fighting, building searches, dual purpose certification, trailing, tracking on variable surfaces and so forth. Most handers would kill for a young dog who has been started off in schutzhund.

The fact that you only find 1 in 50 schutzhund dogs suitable probably speaks for the poor quality of dogs that come your way, after all the good ones are not going to be handed over to the police are they? Either that or its the crap standard of training they receive.

Sorry its late so no sugar coating or pulling punches I'm afraid.

Thanks Jim, after what I saw this Saturday at training, I'm starting to feel that way too. Do all dogs get ubber deffensive in the muzzle? LOL  Normally my decoys can come pet my dog before we start working him, uh uh wasn't having any of the TD walking up to me or around me when he is in muzzle, the guy wasn't even suited up, not even scratch pants on. Oh and the static bite and runaway was NICE. I'm quite happy with my pooch right now.

4pack, we do a muzzle check before muzzle work.  The decoy or someone else pulls hard on the muzzle from the top and bottom to ensure it is tight and won't come off.  My dog wants to maul anyone who touches his muzzle, but a stranger can't touch his leash or collar either.  So yes dogs can get very defensive in the muzzle.  We call it "muzzle happy" we try to avoid this by doing obedience, agility and everything else in the muzzle.  We even let the police dogs play together when muzzled.  The idea is to teach the dog that he may do other things when wearing the muzzle besides fighting.  So he doesn't associate the muzzle with the fight.

Jim

OK, well we did a figure 8 around cones and then the TD stepped in to be a "cone" and the dog was fine with that. He just really wasn't having him reach out and pet him or step real close. We worked on it a bit, trying to keep him neutral. He must do the figure 8 with 4 live people in trial, which I don't see being a problem, since it's us approaching them and they don't move. I was just really surprised by my dogs actions. He's not "mean" or overly aggressive, rather kicked back. Ooh I can't recall if the handler pulls on the muzzle or the judge in PSA? I'm hoping , me.

Hello Bancroft,  perhaps my post was not clear or my intentions were misunderstood.  Sorry, if I struck a nerve with you.  I love SchH and working line dogs.  If it wasn't for breeders breeding working dogs we would have no police dogs.  I am very objective on the subject of working dogs(at least IMO)  and I understand the subtleties of breeding and selling dogs.  I don't do either but have been around a little while.  My start in dogs was SchH and I still decoy and do sport work every weekend.  I think that Police K9 training has evolved over the past several years due to the great strides people have made in sport work.  So, I have some experience with sport and Police K9's, let me address some of the points you made so I can clear up any misconceptions:

First you said:

"Pardon me for saying so but stupid Americans and their police forces are famous for buying titled sports dogs, unseen and wonder why they don't measure up."

Ok, so some Americams are stupid I totally agree.  We are not always the shaprest tools in the shed, or the brighest bulb in the lamp.  Police depts I know buy "green" or untitled dogs, we don't want titles or care about pedigrees.  We want dogs that work, with hip and elbow xrays.  We don't care if they are Mali's (which are the current dog of choice), GSD's or Dutch Shepherds.  We don't even get pedigrees for dogs that we pay $7,000 for!  We don't buy titled dogs.  And we never buy them unseen or untested and they all come with guarantees.  Again, we NEVER buy a Police dog with out an extensive testing process.

2: You said:  "Furthermore, a dog that bites full, calm but not hard and without fight will not be scoring V or even SG" 

Ok, here I disagree.  A judge cannot tell in a trial how hard a dog is biting.  He can view how full the bite is and how calm it is.  He bases the protection score in part on the fullness and calmness of the bite.  A confident, prey driven dog will bite full  and calm because their is no real threat from the decoy.  Another point, a full bite is largely genetic.  Here is a link to my 10 year old female, she is a Sch 3 with a 97 V score in bitework for her 3.  Her lowest score in bitework was a 90. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/395405.html

If you know German working lines you will recognize many dogs in her pedigree.  Great dog, super tracker, great focused OB and a full calm bite every time on any field.  But loaded in prey and super confident.  She never views the decoy as a serious threat, she fights for the sleeve.  Many Conformation dogs will bite full but are like limp spaghetti on the bite. 

I base all of my opinions on dogs that I have worked, FWIW.

I agree that the best dogs come from sport dog breedings.  Dogs that get sold to Police dept's are the ones that won't do high level sport for one reason or another.  Perhaps, the grip which is hard is not 100% full and will lose too many points in a high end competiton.  Perhaps, it's handler aggressive, doesn't like to out, there are a million reasons why they are sold to PD's.  If they would do high level sport they would be sold for more than $6 or 7k, putting them out of our price range. 

3: You said: