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by Mindhunt on 26 July 2013 - 10:07
Moons, I think we struck a sore nerve or something
VK4, I come from a military family and have lost relatives to various wars (WWII, Korea, Nam) as well as having family that has served in every war since WWI. My mother's family immigrated to the US from Germany following WWII, so I also have a civilian's (and a child's) perspective on the horrors of war. I have friends working with soldiers at the VA currently and I have friends both retired and still serving. As for speaking in Japanese or German and wondering if the internet would even be in existence is, well, biased. If you know anyone in the sciences, German is considered the language of science and yes I have friends in sciences as well. I was not "finding holes" in your argument, just adding additional information that I was not sure you had. Question VK4, do you know who Audie Murphy was and why he is important to the military and PTSD? Many don't.....
VK4, I come from a military family and have lost relatives to various wars (WWII, Korea, Nam) as well as having family that has served in every war since WWI. My mother's family immigrated to the US from Germany following WWII, so I also have a civilian's (and a child's) perspective on the horrors of war. I have friends working with soldiers at the VA currently and I have friends both retired and still serving. As for speaking in Japanese or German and wondering if the internet would even be in existence is, well, biased. If you know anyone in the sciences, German is considered the language of science and yes I have friends in sciences as well. I was not "finding holes" in your argument, just adding additional information that I was not sure you had. Question VK4, do you know who Audie Murphy was and why he is important to the military and PTSD? Many don't.....
by ggturner on 26 July 2013 - 12:07
Audie Murphy--love the movie about him! I won't give away who he was, but I admire him.
With regard to family ties to veterans, I have relatives who fought in the Revolutionary War as well as relatives on both sides for the Civil War.
IMO vk4gsd's intent with this thread was to show appreciation to vets and underscore their sacrifice, especially those who suffer from PTSD. It is true that help is out there, but sometimes as Mindhunt said, finding the best care is not always so easy for those who are suffering. Plus, there are those who will not seek the help they need.
With regard to family ties to veterans, I have relatives who fought in the Revolutionary War as well as relatives on both sides for the Civil War.
IMO vk4gsd's intent with this thread was to show appreciation to vets and underscore their sacrifice, especially those who suffer from PTSD. It is true that help is out there, but sometimes as Mindhunt said, finding the best care is not always so easy for those who are suffering. Plus, there are those who will not seek the help they need.
by Two Moons on 26 July 2013 - 14:07
vk4,
I don't come here out of boredom, that's a poor motivation for anything, I come here because this is home, these are my friends.
We may tear each other apart but we still care for each other and keep on coming back, we look out for each other.
You never did say how old you were or where you lived.
Regardless, your posts speak for themselves.
You think your freedom is allowed by another?
Jesus!
People died for your freedom, they were not allowed freedom, they would not except anything less, that's what you should respect.
And that was one war a very long time ago, if your an American.
I won't discuss Vietnam or war in general with you because you have no idea what any of it is all about obviously.
Does your data suggest a cause for the surge in suicides among the military?
That's probably something you should look into, it's not simply PTSD.
I think you grew up in a cozy little bubble vk4, I think you are one of the Nine, do you have any concept of what that is?
While you were praying my friends were coming home in body bags, and we didn't achieve anything by their loss.
Friends and supporters were left behind to die.
Your statement about spitting, mainstream society, and the lack of support are all products of the propaganda of the day and worthless fiction.
Your concept of war in general is also a product of propaganda if you think any of it is about freedom, it's not.
If you really want to help Vets, only vets, who are at risk of commiting suicide and not think twice about the rest of the people who suffer that seems kinda pointless too.
For $589.3 billion we don't even need troops, just a joystick and a few game freaks.
Young people get fooled by people like you into joining the military in the first place, with talk about hero's and honor, free schooling and sign up bonuses.
Lies.
It is the job of our government to care for those who have suffered loss doing it's bidding and we as a people pay for it, problem is they are not doing their job very well and that's where you should spend your effort.
How much of that $589.3 billion do you think goes for the VA?
Look into it sometime.
Audie Murphy was one of many and still one of the few, look him up too when your bored.
Moons.
I don't come here out of boredom, that's a poor motivation for anything, I come here because this is home, these are my friends.
We may tear each other apart but we still care for each other and keep on coming back, we look out for each other.
You never did say how old you were or where you lived.
Regardless, your posts speak for themselves.
You think your freedom is allowed by another?
Jesus!
People died for your freedom, they were not allowed freedom, they would not except anything less, that's what you should respect.
And that was one war a very long time ago, if your an American.
I won't discuss Vietnam or war in general with you because you have no idea what any of it is all about obviously.
Does your data suggest a cause for the surge in suicides among the military?
That's probably something you should look into, it's not simply PTSD.
I think you grew up in a cozy little bubble vk4, I think you are one of the Nine, do you have any concept of what that is?
While you were praying my friends were coming home in body bags, and we didn't achieve anything by their loss.
Friends and supporters were left behind to die.
Your statement about spitting, mainstream society, and the lack of support are all products of the propaganda of the day and worthless fiction.
Your concept of war in general is also a product of propaganda if you think any of it is about freedom, it's not.
If you really want to help Vets, only vets, who are at risk of commiting suicide and not think twice about the rest of the people who suffer that seems kinda pointless too.
For $589.3 billion we don't even need troops, just a joystick and a few game freaks.
Young people get fooled by people like you into joining the military in the first place, with talk about hero's and honor, free schooling and sign up bonuses.
Lies.
It is the job of our government to care for those who have suffered loss doing it's bidding and we as a people pay for it, problem is they are not doing their job very well and that's where you should spend your effort.
How much of that $589.3 billion do you think goes for the VA?
Look into it sometime.
Audie Murphy was one of many and still one of the few, look him up too when your bored.
Moons.
by vk4gsd on 27 July 2013 - 00:07
moons, you seem like a decent fella, you are way to complex for this hick so will pass on trying to engage you or understand you. i think you may have read to many conspiracy theories tho imo, not being critical just sayin.
go easy bro.
hunt "German is considered the language of science " german science sux and always have, they are not innovators and never have been, have you heard of hitlers gift?
the high IQ peeps in germany either escaped or became slaves/martyrs, the ones that escaped went on to lay the scientific foundations that underpin everything that is today, that was hitler's gift to the world - everyone with a brain at the time bolted.
oh that sick fuk mengels stayed to represent intellectual superiority aryan race, may he burn long and slow in hell. you were saying about german science?? lmao
go easy bro.
hunt "German is considered the language of science " german science sux and always have, they are not innovators and never have been, have you heard of hitlers gift?
the high IQ peeps in germany either escaped or became slaves/martyrs, the ones that escaped went on to lay the scientific foundations that underpin everything that is today, that was hitler's gift to the world - everyone with a brain at the time bolted.
oh that sick fuk mengels stayed to represent intellectual superiority aryan race, may he burn long and slow in hell. you were saying about german science?? lmao
by Mindhunt on 27 July 2013 - 03:07
VK4, don't like Germans do you? Germans didn't make contributions to science? Guess you showed your knowledge of German contributions to science, as well as the origins of the "superior race" and "Hitler's gift".
The Brooklyn Bridge, the first suspension bridge built in the US was designed by German immigrant John Augustus Roebling. A German designed the first telephone before Alexander Graham Bell but failed to take out a patent which Bell did. Germans also discovered electromagnetic waves (think radio waves, ever wonder where Hertz came from? Heinrich Hertz), Cathode Ray tube, first rudimentary Radar that all other radars were based on. Germans discovered Alzheimer's Disease, Schwann cell (peripheral nervous system), Langerhans cell and Isle of Langerhans (located in pancreas), Pepsin (think digestion in the stomach), cell theory, nucleic acid, first pregnancy test, chromatography, citric acid cycle, meiosis and mitosis, paraffin wax, numerous chemical elements including oxygen, opioids including morphine, methadone, oxycodone, hydrocodone, etc, designed the first Petri dish, Prussian blue, MP3, Asprin, Adhesive bandage, cardiac catheterization, x-ray and x-ray tube, Stark effect, electron microscope, nuclear fission, photoelectric effect, quantum hall effect, anode ray, Ohm's law, vacuum pump, Richter magnitude scale, Fahrenheit temperature scale, metal detector, liquid propellant rocket, gasoline engine, diesel engine, Wankel engine, air bag, gyrocompass, defogger, mercury vapor lamp, microphone, athletic shoe, Geissler (fluorescent) tube, Mach (speed of an object), blue jeans (Levi Strauss was German), first programmable computer. Oh and of course the German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Doberman Pinscher to name a few of the German dog breed
By the way it is spelled Mengele not mengels. Also the idea for the "superior race" came from Sir Francis Galton in 1880s in Britain and he started the first Eugenics movement believing in the superiority of the Nordic Anglo Saxon people and began the first strict immigration laws and anti-miscegenation laws, forced sterilization of poor, disabled, and unfit. The American Eugenics movement started a few years later and was funded by the Carnegie Institution, Rockefeller Foundation, J.H Kellogg, to name a few. The Eugenics Record Office was located in New York in 1911 started by biologist Charles B Davenport who incidentally advocated for sterilization of the "unfit". The Breeder's Association was the first Eugenic Body established in 1906 (gee before WWII and Hitler). In 1911, the Carnegie Institute report advocated large scale euthanasia using gas chambers for unfit people. Prior to WWII, California Eugenics began publishing literature and sending it to Europe including Germany. The Rockefeller Foundation actually funded Germany's Eugenics program including Mengele's. American Physicians and Psychiatrists went to Germany to teach the Nazi's how to build gas chambers and how to used them "humanely" and were funded by the above mentioned foundations.
So you might want to rethink your comments german science sux and always have, they are not innovators and never have been, have you heard of hitlers gift?
the high IQ peeps in germany either escaped or became slaves/martyrs, the ones that escaped went on to lay the scientific foundations that underpin everything that is today, that was hitler's gift to the world - everyone with a brain at the time bolted.
you were saying about german science?? lmao
The Brooklyn Bridge, the first suspension bridge built in the US was designed by German immigrant John Augustus Roebling. A German designed the first telephone before Alexander Graham Bell but failed to take out a patent which Bell did. Germans also discovered electromagnetic waves (think radio waves, ever wonder where Hertz came from? Heinrich Hertz), Cathode Ray tube, first rudimentary Radar that all other radars were based on. Germans discovered Alzheimer's Disease, Schwann cell (peripheral nervous system), Langerhans cell and Isle of Langerhans (located in pancreas), Pepsin (think digestion in the stomach), cell theory, nucleic acid, first pregnancy test, chromatography, citric acid cycle, meiosis and mitosis, paraffin wax, numerous chemical elements including oxygen, opioids including morphine, methadone, oxycodone, hydrocodone, etc, designed the first Petri dish, Prussian blue, MP3, Asprin, Adhesive bandage, cardiac catheterization, x-ray and x-ray tube, Stark effect, electron microscope, nuclear fission, photoelectric effect, quantum hall effect, anode ray, Ohm's law, vacuum pump, Richter magnitude scale, Fahrenheit temperature scale, metal detector, liquid propellant rocket, gasoline engine, diesel engine, Wankel engine, air bag, gyrocompass, defogger, mercury vapor lamp, microphone, athletic shoe, Geissler (fluorescent) tube, Mach (speed of an object), blue jeans (Levi Strauss was German), first programmable computer. Oh and of course the German Shepherd, Rottweiler, Doberman Pinscher to name a few of the German dog breed
By the way it is spelled Mengele not mengels. Also the idea for the "superior race" came from Sir Francis Galton in 1880s in Britain and he started the first Eugenics movement believing in the superiority of the Nordic Anglo Saxon people and began the first strict immigration laws and anti-miscegenation laws, forced sterilization of poor, disabled, and unfit. The American Eugenics movement started a few years later and was funded by the Carnegie Institution, Rockefeller Foundation, J.H Kellogg, to name a few. The Eugenics Record Office was located in New York in 1911 started by biologist Charles B Davenport who incidentally advocated for sterilization of the "unfit". The Breeder's Association was the first Eugenic Body established in 1906 (gee before WWII and Hitler). In 1911, the Carnegie Institute report advocated large scale euthanasia using gas chambers for unfit people. Prior to WWII, California Eugenics began publishing literature and sending it to Europe including Germany. The Rockefeller Foundation actually funded Germany's Eugenics program including Mengele's. American Physicians and Psychiatrists went to Germany to teach the Nazi's how to build gas chambers and how to used them "humanely" and were funded by the above mentioned foundations.
So you might want to rethink your comments german science sux and always have, they are not innovators and never have been, have you heard of hitlers gift?
the high IQ peeps in germany either escaped or became slaves/martyrs, the ones that escaped went on to lay the scientific foundations that underpin everything that is today, that was hitler's gift to the world - everyone with a brain at the time bolted.
you were saying about german science?? lmao
by Two Moons on 27 July 2013 - 14:07
go easy bro?
you think I'm Animal Mother out of a movie?
Germans...........................................
vk4,
history is not a conspiracy theory.
I do not support war, the war machine, or the politics of war, I do not feel sorry for the idiots who joined the military thinking they are patriotic, heroic, or looking for that great adventure, be all you can be...what a crock of shit.
War is always about power and money, resources, strategic interests, people and ideas are nothing more than pawns, hostages, emotional tools.
I do however feel sorry for the young people who got blind sided by promises of school and moneys since there are no jobs for them on the streets and then they end up pulling three tours one right after the other.
As for suicide I have mixed feelings, at times it makes perfect sense, other times it is a sign of weakness, either way I don't think laws in this area are appropriate.
We've touched on this topic a time or two before.
I think you came here at a bad time of the lunar cycle vk4...........:)
you think I'm Animal Mother out of a movie?
Germans...........................................
vk4,
history is not a conspiracy theory.
I do not support war, the war machine, or the politics of war, I do not feel sorry for the idiots who joined the military thinking they are patriotic, heroic, or looking for that great adventure, be all you can be...what a crock of shit.
War is always about power and money, resources, strategic interests, people and ideas are nothing more than pawns, hostages, emotional tools.
I do however feel sorry for the young people who got blind sided by promises of school and moneys since there are no jobs for them on the streets and then they end up pulling three tours one right after the other.
As for suicide I have mixed feelings, at times it makes perfect sense, other times it is a sign of weakness, either way I don't think laws in this area are appropriate.
We've touched on this topic a time or two before.
I think you came here at a bad time of the lunar cycle vk4...........:)
by SitasMom on 27 July 2013 - 16:07
too moons,
what freedom?
our society is burdened with so many laws!
we used to have freedom, but we are limited everywhere.
we still have some liberty, but not so much freedom.
just look at the dog breeding business for one example.
USDA, state, county and city all limit what we do.
Number of dogs we can own, required vaccinations, type of housing (including air conditioning), condition of dogs, required veterinary on call, amount of required exercise...the list in endless and contradicts.
look at owning a car and driving....
Federal, state, county and cities again limit us.
Inspections, taxes, traffic law, license, insurance....
At any time we can be stripped of the right to drive.
there are so many laws in this country, farting in public will be illegal very soon....
what freedom?
our society is burdened with so many laws!
we used to have freedom, but we are limited everywhere.
we still have some liberty, but not so much freedom.
just look at the dog breeding business for one example.
USDA, state, county and city all limit what we do.
Number of dogs we can own, required vaccinations, type of housing (including air conditioning), condition of dogs, required veterinary on call, amount of required exercise...the list in endless and contradicts.
look at owning a car and driving....
Federal, state, county and cities again limit us.
Inspections, taxes, traffic law, license, insurance....
At any time we can be stripped of the right to drive.
there are so many laws in this country, farting in public will be illegal very soon....
by vk4gsd on 27 July 2013 - 21:07
interesting that this thread has actually got any responses at all, it was not specifically a made for discussion thread, but thats cool, the points of view are always interesting.
mind, i do not hate germans or anyone else - i hate the things they did, and i hate that so many are or were in denial about it till the day they died, and i hate so many lived out there lives to no account for the evil they did.
half my own ped is german from bavaria, grandfather was an engineer in wwII, he never once spoke about the war, it was like it never happened, he stayed in germany and i was born in another country so i did not see him a lot. i always tried to ask him about his experience mainly as a curious child, it was erased from his mind like so many others of his peers. only once some of his buddies were drinking and talking and i figured with my poor understanding of the language the mask fell off and it seemed they said something about the war like they felt they were right about it and proud!!! scary, sad and weird.
please tell me you did not type all that stuff in, i hope it was cut and paste. no internet argument is worth that much effort, you achieved what, that you are right? do you think you have changed my mind on anything?
mind, i do not hate germans or anyone else - i hate the things they did, and i hate that so many are or were in denial about it till the day they died, and i hate so many lived out there lives to no account for the evil they did.
half my own ped is german from bavaria, grandfather was an engineer in wwII, he never once spoke about the war, it was like it never happened, he stayed in germany and i was born in another country so i did not see him a lot. i always tried to ask him about his experience mainly as a curious child, it was erased from his mind like so many others of his peers. only once some of his buddies were drinking and talking and i figured with my poor understanding of the language the mask fell off and it seemed they said something about the war like they felt they were right about it and proud!!! scary, sad and weird.
please tell me you did not type all that stuff in, i hope it was cut and paste. no internet argument is worth that much effort, you achieved what, that you are right? do you think you have changed my mind on anything?
by Mindhunt on 27 July 2013 - 23:07
VK4, nope not cut and paste, it was from research I did in my sophmore year of college because I was sick of people confusing Germans with Nazis, they are 2 distinct groups, Germans are Germans and Nazis are people from different countries believing in the Nazi propaganda. As for your Grandfather not remembering because as you say, it was erased from his mind like so many others of his peers, what he witnessed and experienced may have been so horrific that he is avoiding any triggers. It is very common with war survivors to distance themselves from anything that might trigger memories. It is also common with PTSD, to avoid reminders or triggers. The mind is powerful and is designed to protect you at all costs. Suppressing memories is a defense mechanism so it isn't that it was erased, it was most likely suppressed and shoved so far down in the deepest parts of his mind that he isn't even consciously aware his brain did so. People also use filters to remember what they chose how they chose. This is why is is so difficult to get those individuals that need help to seek help, the memories are suppressed so the individual can function even if it is poorly.
Memory is a fragile thing, the more you bring up a memory, the more it is influenced by current context, the more the memory is altered, this is why eye witness testimony is flawed. Don't be so quick to label his and his friends' behavior as erasure and glorifying, it may be selective memory, suppression, denial, and anything else that allows them to continue functioning. There were experiments done on memory that were referred to as the "Lost in the Mall" experiments and the "Drowning in the Pond". Also Stanley Milgram and his experiments on Obedience to Authority, there were experiments done by school children to separate blue eyed children from brown eyed to bring home the ease in which prejudice, privilege, and exclusion can be created and perpetuated. All of these show how you can influence and direct behavior if you know what you are doing and have the resources.
Memory is a fragile thing, the more you bring up a memory, the more it is influenced by current context, the more the memory is altered, this is why eye witness testimony is flawed. Don't be so quick to label his and his friends' behavior as erasure and glorifying, it may be selective memory, suppression, denial, and anything else that allows them to continue functioning. There were experiments done on memory that were referred to as the "Lost in the Mall" experiments and the "Drowning in the Pond". Also Stanley Milgram and his experiments on Obedience to Authority, there were experiments done by school children to separate blue eyed children from brown eyed to bring home the ease in which prejudice, privilege, and exclusion can be created and perpetuated. All of these show how you can influence and direct behavior if you know what you are doing and have the resources.
by Hundmutter on 28 July 2013 - 10:07
All that Mindhunt says is true, I believe. I had an 'uncle' who
was forced to build railways for the Japanese during WWII, he
barely survived. He would never talk about his experiences.
[Certainly didn't indicate agreement with the Japanese !]
I find it really odd that anyone should post a 'not for discussion'
topic on any board, vk, much less this notoriously argumentative
forum ! Did you just want a lot of 'Like' ticks, or something ?
So do we take it you are not prepared to have your mind changed
on anything ? Will remember that the next daft pronouncement
you make on some GSD-related issue. SMH.
was forced to build railways for the Japanese during WWII, he
barely survived. He would never talk about his experiences.
[Certainly didn't indicate agreement with the Japanese !]
I find it really odd that anyone should post a 'not for discussion'
topic on any board, vk, much less this notoriously argumentative
forum ! Did you just want a lot of 'Like' ticks, or something ?
So do we take it you are not prepared to have your mind changed
on anything ? Will remember that the next daft pronouncement
you make on some GSD-related issue. SMH.
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