Training style study results - Page 2

To OGBS; WOW!
And to cphudson; My mentality is there is training for every instance/scenario if you want to put forth the effort and time. My dogs are good and most of the time very good. But that is me, somewhat strict due to Military and Law Enforcement. Some would call my dogs great but in my eyes only due to what other dogs they have seen or been around. For me.......they can always be better. I had my Chows and for the most all of my dogs trained where they were/are not allowed in the kitchen when I am cooking or eating and at times in life if others were involved, when we were eating. I remember with the female Chow, Sasha, she would never enter the kitchen but she would lay at the threshhold and her two front paws would crossover into the kitchen......... hee hee.

My current pack they know they must "RELAX" and lay down if there are to be in the kitchen with me, (guess as I get older I get a little soft?) My dogs can't not beg, you know how some dogs drool or give you the "I'm going to starve if you don't give me some look"? I have had some people say to me that my dogs are more important to me than people........ I have had some people say that I place my dogs too high in/on importance......... and other crap like that. I just expect that since they will be at my side for the majority of the lives that they need to behave, be obedient, and for the most part mind better than most children.  

OGBS, maybe they can just do what Cesar Milan does. Put bandanas over the e collar. I think it will work.

Chaz,
LOL!! (Now on a serious note does he do that?)

I always ask these over educated theoreticians who call humane correction "abuse" these questions.
1.What kind of positive reinforcement  you use if 108 lb Rott attacks you. 
2.How does your positive - fun reward system ( food or tug toy) without corrections ever applied, overrides and motivates the dog to stop, if he decides to chase a cat or deer across busy highway or is overwhelmed  by some other unpredictable stimulus.
  Show me. I have some cats and / or I can generate infinity of  other overwhelming  and    unpredictable stimuli. This challenge was never accepted yet.
3. What do you do, if your well "positively only"  trained dog decides that he/she does not like your 97 years old neighbor on a walker Mabel or little kid on a bicycle or  any unexpected aggression tripping stimulus which you did not train the dog for and the dog decides that he wants to kill it? 
4. If you do not use the leash for correction why do you have a dog on leash then?!
 Yes, my experience tells me that 90% of all   overly aggressive dogs against their owners  or dogs  overly protective  of  their owners,   are coming from dogs who were not trained at all or were trained with positive methods only where there were no  corrections applied.  
 As matter of fact I am so angry about these "I am better trainer then you because I am scientific theoretician and I am  PC", that I can not spit. Yes! These scientific based trainers / theoreticians who are trying to sell yet another book or propel themselves above "the other" troglodytes dog trainers ( like me Ha HA) , in order to sell them self.  Just because someone says something which sounds good does not mean that they are right , correct or that what they are saying is the truth. 
 They make me sick, since they cause tremendous harm and are preying on gullible public. 
 Anyway don't get me started:)
 Hans

Different dogs=different styles. A soft, nervous dog does needs positive reinforcement, hard dogs need discipline. Saying one style or another fits all dogs is oversimplification.

My male will take a hard correction, if it's needed; no harm done, & he knows what he did to deserve it, & we're good. If I DIDN'T correct him, there would be trouble. And he's not tested me for a long time, now. On the other hand, he's not stupid, he wouldn't stand for being abused, or corrected with out reason, either.

My silly girl pup would go all to pieces with a moderate correction, so I use positive reinforcement with her. She's a soft, sweet little girl, & only wants to make everyone happy, so she's very easy. She's also never going to take any stress, or pressure, never going to be more than a companion. And I know how she reacts to unusual stuff, she's extremely passive.

Her sister thinks she's a bad ass, she can handle a little pressure, & her training is different than the other 2 dogs.

Different dogs, different goals, different training styles. Never one size fits all.

jmho, jackie harris

Techniques may be different and need to be adopted to each individual dog but principles of psychology are always the same. 

Prager  is absolutely  correct.  I took a look at the actual articles being quoted on the blog and they are typical "I want tenure" type acedemic publications.  The author basically has to do this either get a acedemic job or keep the one they have.  I don't put any blame on researcher writing the article, I blame the folks who claim the findings support thier nonsensical  views on "positive only" training (Maria DeLeon of SmartHund Dog Training  would be the idiot in this case). In fact the author is citing four very different unrelated studies to support a claim that "positive is better"  I have access to the full Elsevier articles being cited.  The "The relationship between training methods  " article by Blackwell is based on questionnaire survey , not on actual observations by a third party.  I'm not saying the findings have zero validity, but they certainly do not support the blogs claim in any way.  Th Blackwel article is just compiling feedback from people who "tried something" and reported how that "something" went.

Now onto the "Training dogs with help of the shock collar" article.   Not to take anything out of context but the author states in the article "We have not proved that the long-term welfare of the shocked dogs is hampered ", but the blog writter seemed to make that claim.  Also the author of the article supports Pagers above statements:
"the type of dog used here are highly motivated, hard, temperamental and possess low biting thresholds. They stem from special breeding lines and quickly become so excited, that mistakes are easily made and commands not obeyed. This also promotes punishments. Also, the high excitement may have analgesic effects, so that softer physical punishments do not have the desired effect. Fifth, during training excessive emphasis is being laid upon biting. The “let go” command, that is often not obeyed and therefore elicits punishment, is trained much later than biting."

I haven't had a chance to read the other two articles yet, but going on what I did find in the two I read, its pretty easy to make Maria DeLeon of SmartHund Dog Training   sound like a blithering idiot with a biased agenda.

On a side note, one of the universities I attended had a zoo animal training program (actually took two animal behavior courses for fun while I was there, I was studying gibbons at the time in another department under a professors doing research and thought the courses would help me some with the work involved).  They used positive only because you can't give a "correction" to a tiger, lion or alligator.  Positive will reinfoce the behavior "trick" that you want the tiger to do on queue, but it won't stop the same animal from mauling you if its not in the mood that day.  We are actually very lucky that domesticated animals can take "corrections" because it CAN SAVE LIVES.  Do you think the first few generations of wolf pups that that were selected by humans for breeding didn't respond well to corrections?  I'll bet they did, for everyones safety.  Heck, why doesn' Maria DeLeon  just ask Roy Horn for an interview about the drawbacks to positive only training (hint Ray Horn used to have a show with a guy named Siegfried  Fischbacher in Las Vegas).
  in Las a

first, about stupid studies, in holland a study is going on to breed less agressive pigs and chickens to avoid cannibalism in bio industry  duuuhhhhhh
this professor is also giving lectures about dogbreeding

teaching a dog on purely positive is no problem , but making him do what is thought under all circumsancaes and stimulus is impossible on pure positive, it as as simple as that

the level of correction/punish is however overdone in many cases, and many times used in the teaching proces, which I think is not good, you cannot correct a dog for disobeying a command that he does not fully understand

first, about stupid studies,

 I know most of you don't have the articles that Maria DeLeon from SmartHund is referencing, but not one of them claims what Maria says on the Smarthund website.  In fact having read the articles I coud also write a few paragraphs citing the same articles as Maria DeLeon does, fully supporting correction based training.  She simply picked out the parts she wanted to use.  

The articles I read said that they don't know how harsh corrections affect a dogs overall psyche.  In fact one article says that high drive dogs usually cannot be trained on purely positive methods alone and that if someone wants to train a working dog quickly for military, law enforcement or for a sport like schutzhund , postive methods may not be able to achieve that because getting results from positive only training is much slower.  We need to separate the original researchers writings from the opinions of Maria DeLeon from SmartHund. She's using the incomplete ongoing research of acedemics to support her philosphy about training.  I'm pretty sure the SmartHund website is a portal for selling her training and dog walking services.  In actuality she just assumes that no one will really know how to look up the full articles and just take her word on the "facts" found in the articles.  So please don't hound the people that wrote the research,  hound that idiot that claims the said research supports her claims, when it does not. 

She seems to be promoting herself on linkedin also, but I don't see anything in her educational background that would give her any authority to make such claims.     Pr
 
Here is a seminar she's promoting which may have a forthcomming book deal on the content:  

  is referhttp://www.smarthund.com/file/seminar.html


 "Canine Emotional Detox" ""

 , now doesn't that sound warm ,fuzzy and scientific.  Like the dogs are going to a rehab clinic similar to Lindsay Lohan going to Promises Rehab in Malibu, CA!