No guarentees from Germany - Page 1

I can understand that if you buy a puppy from Germany there are no guarentees. You always gamble with a puppy anyhow. But what about if you pay the big bucks they ask for older puppies or grown dogs. I have read horror stories on this board about paying a lot of money and never getting the dog, etc. Do any of the "Germans" stand behind this older dogs as far as actually sending what is promised?

I think any serious breeder in Germany would stand behind that promise. They have a reputation to upkeep, too. It is a different story if you go to a broker or any other middleman. I have never been cheated by anybody. But there is also always a different side of a coin: What about all these buyers who promise to send money or to buy the dog, and then never to be heard of again? In Germany, you usually don't have written contracts (maybe for the top priced dogs, I have not bought one yet, lol). If I tell somebody that I will buy that dog for that price and pay on such date, I will do this. It is expected from me, no ifs and buts. If you don't follow through with that, legally there is not much they could do to enforce it but you will get a bad reputation. People talk! After a couple of times, you won't be able to buy a dog for a decent price anymore. Another sad story: A breeder-judge-friend of mine with a very wellknwon kennelname (now retired) called me once in desperate need of help. He had sold a titled male to a couple in New York and they had promised to pay for this dog in three installments. He had sent this male over in good faith, because the first installment arrived, but luckily he withheld the papers. Well, the check bounced. He had paid the shipping and the dog was gone.He signed the dog over to me and sent the papers with express mail. We drove to upstate New York to claim the dog. Luckily, these people gave up the dog without a fight. We had prepared ourselves to call the local police. The dog was resold for a lot less money than what he was worth, but shipping him back home to Germany would have been expensive. My old friend lost a lot of money, he also insisted on giving us a fair part for our trouble, since it was over a 5 hour drive one-way. I just mention this so you can see the other side of the story, too. There are cheaters and people who get cheated on both sides! JMO, Chris

Hi GSD4 dogs. Paying a single dollar and not receiving the dog in exchange has nothing to do with a guarantee. That is failure to fulfill a contract. I personally do not know of any case where a different dog was sent than agreed upon. Though some people have written about that here. Such cases would be the exception to the rule IMO. Consider the silence of all the transactions that went without a hitch. The few that get publicity are the odd one out of the sum of all the dogs leaving Germany. Most breeders in the US only guarantee for hips, maybe elbows, not much of anything else. So what else would you like guaranteed in a dog? People that inquire about an import often want guarantees on fertility, better yet - a guarantee on perfect offspring. A guarantee on performance, longevity, no future health problems, etc. No breeder or seller can guarantee that. For all anyone knows the dog can drop dead tomorrow, or never be able to reproduce or whatever. That is nature after all. We cannot control nature. If you want a maintenance free animal you would have to resort to the stuffed kind :o). Now, if a known condition has been withheld, then that is a different story of course. But in most cases a regular health exam before the dog is sent off will not uncover unknown or hidden problems that take a long time to manifest or are hard to detect. In addition, few buyers are willing to pay for a more thorough exam when buying a dog, but would not hesitate a second to bring a car they consider purchasing to a garage for a pre-purchase checkup. Something to think about. If the dog is not as described then that can be a issue. If you were dealing with a German person directly whose English is only soso, then this might be due to communication problems. If either of you need to use translation tools, then you have the source of your problem right there. In general though a dog is what it is - has show rating of this, KKL of that, SchHx, HDwhatever. Everything else is theoretically open to interpretation. You may have a different view of what a good working dog is then I for example. If such things have not been addressed to the degree of your satisfaction then you should not be angry after the fact. Also, often older photos are shown of the dog that is for sale. A dog that was photographed at Youth Class age will look very different at age 3, 4 or 5 etc. Also, some dogs adjust quickly to a new surrounding, others may need weeks and of course will not show their true self until they feel at home. There are lots of possible sources for possible problems. Many problems can be avoided by asking the right questions and being thorough, by not getting greedy, by using common sense, and trusting your gut. When a problem appears, the buyer is usually very emotional at first. In short - angry. In such a state exaggerated comments can easily be made, that upon closer investigation may not have been necessary or could have been resolved differently. If problems are not addressed properly, rather accusations start to fly, and temperaments start to fly off the handle, your chances of resolving anything quickly fly out the window. But that is a different topic. Just keep in mind that one bad comment will immediately erase 100 good comments in people's minds. Therefore the horror stories will tend stick with you, though you hardly ever wonder where all the other people got their many dogs from that they usually are happy with. After all it is a German breed and all the parents of the 46.000 AKC registered pups from last year had to be imported at some point in time, or their ancestors. cont...

cont... Most breeders will quickly turn "broker" if the one dog they have for sale does not fit the picture, but they know of another or some others that might, which they usually do. In the US as well as in Germany. So this whole "better not go with a broker" is a bunch of humbug anyways (sorry Chris, nothing personal meant, JMO). I bet there is hardly a single breeder, handler or competitor on this board who has not referred a dog from another source at some point in time. Even if you do it for a friend, out of goodwill, or for whatever reason - the moment its not your own dog it then makes you a "broker". Its a matter of personal interpretation, so no need to start bickering on the ins and outs of when is a dog brokered and when not. There would be only a fraction of the GSDs in the US or other countries today if not for the "brokers". In general, dogs in Germany are sold "as is". For anything else you would need a contract to prove your case. There are some laws you could take advantage of, but by the time the case is through the courts the dog is old or dead. Higher priced dogs are usually picked out in person. Or the parties have already met and established a relationship of trust and take it from there, or send a representative, or use a broker :). Whatever you do, whatever you spend, it always involves a huge amount of trust. One reason why the reactions are so volatile when things go wrong. On top of the anger comes disappointment and the feeling of having been betrayed. Keep in mind though that it is hardly worth it for any established, half-way intelligent persons to risk prosecution for a mere few dollars. Bad cases are really the exception rather than the norm. You will come across riff-raff at any place. No matter if breeder, single or multiple dog owner, or "broker". So you need to do a little homework in order to weed out the bad. A few red flags: - do you feel pressured into a purchase? - 10 other people are supposedly already interested in this particular dog and you must act now or will loose the chance of a life time - in the next sentence though they offer a different dog that you could buy just as well and is just as good - avoiding to give direct and concrete answers to your questions, or provide only generalized answers - every single dog that is available is the best possible and has no flaws of course, and all are well suited for you - conflicting statements about the dog (first said this, then said that) - telling you everything you want to hear - avoiding discussing your actual needs, goals, and wishes - no references, or they are all from some buddies from the same local club - you only have a cell phone number for contact - your gut tells you something is off - it is jut tooooooo good to be true! A good rule of thumb: - your questions deserve straight forward answers. If the information you need is not available it should be provided to you shortly - the person you are dealing with knows what they are talking about, and if they lack knowledge in some area, can admit to it and will make themselves knowledable on your behalf - no or minimal pressure - respect for your needs, goals and wishes - someone with the above in mind might steer you away from the dog you are inquiring about, towards something that will actually suit you better, and can actually explain why that would be the case - good references - it feels right, feels good, go for it - if it feels wrong, let it go. There will always be another! Promise yourself that you will wait for the right situation to come along. The right dog will come in due time. There is a Sieger show or National trial every year after all. If you should be that ambitious :O).

Compliments to D.H. for a very professional and complete reply to the above posting.

I prefer importing puppies for the simple reason that I then know how the dog is being brought up and of course it's much cheaper. If you you buy a grown dog you'll never know if the dog had some sort of bad experience as a youngster. You also don't know how it was trained. Some of the methods used in Germany to attain the SchH is rather questionable.I insist on full, written guarantees on hips, ears and teeth and have never had a problem getting it.

to give some info on DHs post .. a frnd of mine paid big bucks to get a pair of pink papered dogs...he however didnt know much abt gsds since his dad was the one interested...and as the pup grew up the male developed soft ears...so when i went to check him out i saw that the pedigree had a tattoo number but there ws no tattoo on the dogs ears...or on any other part of the body....so u can understand the shock..cos hed paid like 150,000 taka (our currency) and when the avg persons yearly income here is 60-67,000 takas plus shippin for each dog... he tried to contact the person who had sent the dogs ..to no avail... havnt been able to check the female for tattoo cos shes in another city.. so heres a point where someone sent the wrong dog. but the frnd sold off the male so its all doesnt matter anyway now.. .

D.H. Thank you for your very complete post. It is easy enough to check tatoos, etc. While photos can hide some flaws, if you know what you are looking for you could in theory know what you are getting from a photo. You could even ask for a video to check movement, etc. However, what about temperament? all the terms are very subjective and mean different things to different people. Pzdc brought up an interesting point regarding training methods. for example if the dog's owner in Germany tells me the dog has a super temperament and loves to work, can I expect that the dog will enjoy working protection for me or could I end up with a spook that will only work by force? What if the dog won't work for me? Can I expect the seller to stand behind the dog? Also, if I wanted to import either a puppy or young dog, how do I go about making the contacts? Thanks everyone for all the input.

pzdc, which breeder in germany ( i guess thats where you are getting your pups from) are you getting your pups from and that will actually signs guarantees?