HIPS CERTIFIED - Page 1

HEY, ARE THERE ALOT OF BREEDERS YET NOT DOING CERTIFIED HIPS BEFORE BREEDING THEIR DOGS? IF SO, THIS IS UNBLIEVABLE TO ME. HOW ON EARTH IS HD GOING TO BE BRED OUT OF THIS GREAT BREED? AND, OTHERS AS WELL.? HIPS AND ELBOWS MUST BE STAMPED AT A YEAR OLD BY SV RULES AND AKC WE FOLLOW THE 2 YEAR OFA CERTIFICATION. JUST INTERESTED IN HOW MANY AGREE HIPS SHOULD BE DONE AND STAMPED A OR A FAST NORMAL BEFORE BREEDING?

I agree with the importance of determining the status of hips before breeding but I'm finding some very conflicting information on the OFA and SV systems. It is my understanding that under the SV system, fast normal can mean those dogs with slight hip dysplasia. If that is true, why are these dogs being bred? Also, I am hearing a number of people say that the OFA system is very subjective and far less than consistent. Hopefully, someone more knowledgeable than I am would like to comment. Judy

AKC requires OFA testing? Not for registration...! AKC will register any litter whether or not parents have been OFA's, as long as the proper monies are paid. That is the problem. Too many dogs being bred may have HD, but were never tested. Even if breeder volunteers to OFA their stock, their OFA scores will not show up on the AKC pedigree unless the dog is properly identified: "Please note that if the dog did not have some sort of permanent identification, such as a microchip or tattoo, at the time of the evaluation by OFA and that the presence of this identification was reported by OFA when the evaluation was provided to AKC, the dog's certification(s) will not appear on AKC records." Problem with this too is that AKC has NO REQUIRMENT to identify dogs. There is no such thing as a "Breed Warden".

Yes, I believe that almost everyone will agree that hips ***should*** be done before a dog is bred. Every country has it's own rules and regulations. Germany is the only country that requires temperment testing, titles, conformation rating, AD, hips, koering for registration [pink papers]. AKC only requires that parents are AKC registered. Hips are optional. Does 'everyone' do it? Heck no! There are a ton of dogs listed in this database as being OFA certified. As with everything else on this site, this info is on 'the honor system'. When you see an OFA cited for a dog, you can check on the OFA website http://www.offa.com Unfortunately, there are dozens of "commercial" breeders, encompassing 'back yard breeders', 'puppy mills' and just plain commerical kennels taking advantage of the laxity of the AKC regulations to produce puppies for the pet market in the United States. Citing "german lines", I have seen dogs with a mixture of Am Show lines, WGR show lines, Czech lines and DDR lines all being mixed together with no regard for anything but churning out pups for $$$$. Those types of breeders do not care much about certifications of ANY type!!

Although many agree that having OFAd and/or "a"stamp stock is great, but is it also important to look at the OFA ratings and ZW,s of the two dogs mated to reach a better outlook? I myself had puchased three pups(not related,different kennels)to where both parents were OFA'd and/or "a"stamped only to wind up with severe hip displasia on all three,(talking about bad luck!)All were bought out of the USA. Since I have been importing from Germany from kennel that use the ratings to determin whos breed to who.So far all OFA's Good. Maybe someone can explain this better,always open for the education of the GSD. THANK'S!!

OFA is not 100% consistent, and then "a" stamp you can get done at 1 yr old and things can change as the dog matures. OFA wont rate til 2 so it gives you a better idea.. so they say. OFA you may get one reading and another read the same xray come up with something different.. but thats not the norm. if you trust your Vet send the xray in and the results are similar to what your Vet says.. you are probably ok. Many breeders of the AKC backround do OFA their breeding stock actually there are more AKC folks doing Elbows than SV from what i have seen. But no AKC dont have to OFA their breeding stock, unfortunately. However... just sit tight and watch and see... there may be a plan ahead for those involved in american dogs who are trying to do what is right and implement a type of Breed Survey :) Perhaps the AKC vs SV thing should be another thread.. Back to H&E, You can get an OFA fair and an "a" normal.. from the same xray.. OFA will feel its not that great. can happen vise versa with "a" stamp. the OFA may tend to be stricter some feel.. some may beg to differ. Will let ya know when we get our "a" stamp back from our just OFA'd GOOD bitch. for her Hips. She will not be bred til she gets her elbows done anyway. There are probably equal the amount of HD in both german registered GSD and AKC registered GSD. Unfortunately for these sweet creatures, i know more german dogs with HD than AKC registered alot more :( doesnt mean anything except my friends going through this their dogs sire/dam had "A" normal hips. so go figure! Funny thing with HD and ED... typically the parents of HD or ED are usually normal, or excellent or good hips/elbows... it seems like NZ can produce Normal... really wierd how that happens. thats why i personally do not feel genetics is the sole reason for HD or ED. from what i am finding.. its polygenetic, in regards to elbows.. i dont have experience in HD so i cant quote that. Puppies that are low in pasterns are noted to end up with UAP. Puppies who do not have a good diet can lean towards UAP (if the genetic predisposition is there some feel) same thing with off the wall puppies who jump and bang elbows and all that.. there can be generations that are free of UAP or ED and just pop up due to the combo of the sire/dam. we want to do the good thing by not breeding the offspring of these animal with UAP / ED how many German line dogs do check elbows before breeding? Wild, if it were that simple to just get rid of HD and ED it would have been done... until there are genetic markers, for which i hear many AKC American GSD breeders are trying to get done.. we may never find out how to rid the breed of it. if you would like to hear more about the "markers" from a very awesome GSD breeder of both lines.. email me i will forward your questions and you two can discuss it Regards, Dawnmarie

I think the SV leaders have assummed that balance must be used in dealing with any genetic problems or one will lose the essence of the breed, and that is why they set minimum standards and leave it up to the breeders and buyers to determine the market drift in such matters. Theoretically, a breeder who is totally committed to eliminating HD and elbow displasia could succeed in doing so or come exceedingly close within 9-10 generations by breeding only OFA excellent hips and OFA normal elbows (at 2 years old + retested again at old age) to thereby establish pedigree depth (a 30+ year project). There are actually enough GSD imported studs dogs and bitches around with OFA excellent hips and super clean elbows. But if hip and elbow purity was the foremost goal, in order to get 90%+ of one's puppies OFA excellent hips and normal elbows, one would likely end up with short stepping, spindly coyote type shepherds that most GSD enthusiasts wouldn't want, plus it could involve very high costs to acquire, breed, raise, Xray and cull the necessary stock at each step in the process. One exciting alternative may be available within the next five years. It will likely be possible to strip out some of the genes of the germ plasm (sperm cells or other cells, eg all other cells in the body carry a full set of the dog's DNA) of greyhounds, GSDs or other breeds who carry perfect hip genes (such as VA Esko), dogs who are known for deep clean hips, and then tranport and splice them into GSD eggs and sperm or zygotes. Normal Hip and elbow confirmation is likely controlled by 5+ specific gene locations each for direct confirmation and several secondary gene locations that control size and weight and growth rate of bone plates, Cox production, etc.

(CONTINUED)Will the AKC and SV ever allow registration of dogs who have had this done, and perhaps other gene splicing for temperament, color, movement, temperament, Etc. Will there be any bold future oriented owners of top stud dogs who will sell certified germ plasm for such experiments. Will all GSDs in the future have to have complete DNA profiles on file. There is a company right now who advertises that they can and will clone your pet if you pay their high fee. So far they have produced some clones. Rumor has it that there are some serious problems with 100% cloned offspring such as shortened life span, high prenatal and post-natal mortality, weird metabolic issues, etc., etc. But some top genetic scientists believe it's only a matter of time when the breeding of animals can be improved to minimize health problems and maximize health and function. There are already a few human diseases which have been helped by gene splicing and more is on the way. A great deal of research is now being done and I predict we will see some terrific advances within the next 5-10 years. There is a Neurosurgeon in France who has already successfully "fused" some severed spinal cords and seen more than a few paraplegics regain use of their lower extremities. This was recently testified to before a US Congressional Committee on Health and I saw the film strips of one young lady learning to walk again. It seemed almost miraculous and she was ecstatic to be able to walk and have feeling in her legs again. Such experimental surgeries are not always helpful, and this is not yet allowed in the USA. Use of adult human stem cells (from the patient's own body), contrary to current public opinion is turning out to be far superior to use of aborted fetal stem cells (which many object to on moral, spiritual or religious grounds). Use of stem cells in dogs and gene splicing methods will eventually come into use,like it or not, and are undoubtedly going to revolutionize the GSD breed, albeit the huge controversies which will accompany such practices. It may soon be possible for your University Vet teaching school to clone specific organs or your dog to transplant such as hip bones, kidneys, pancrease, etc. But will high cost prevent it?

Are the X-ray views for OFA and for "a" stamp exactly the same? I want to do "a" stamps for my dogs, but the vets say they are not sure how to X-ray for that. Should I just ask them to do it as if they were X-raying for OFA? Thank you.

Makosh, NO First, You must be a member of SchH USA The following information must be exposed on the identification plate of the x-ray: *Complete registered name of the dog (as it appears on the registration papers/pedigree) *Registration number *Tattoo number *Date of birth *Name of owner *Date the x-ray is taken *Veterinarian name and business address To be sure i copied this from the website. If anything is missing or altered they will not accept it at your cost. also on the website it states: *Current USA Membership # required *Original x-ray. *Original recognized registration papers including pedigree. (Registration papers must show proper transfer of ownership completed.) *Evaluation fee of $70.00 payable to United Schutzhund Clubs of America. * A processing fee of $30.00 will be charged if the above procedures are not followed and x-ray instructions are not completed within 30 days. After 30 days x-rays will be returned. If you need additional information regarding the “a” stamp hip certification program, please contact: United Schutzhund Clubs of America 3810 Paule Avenue St. Louis, MO 63125-1718 (314) 638-9686 (314) 638-0609 (fax) The xray is the same set up as you would for OFA. I am sure you are going to OFA when your dog/bitch is 2 yrs old as well. Alot of puppy buyers are becoming "aware" of hips and elbows and are asking, even german dogs, if they have their OFA. It helps and wont hinder if you have an OFA for Hips and Elbows :) Good Luck!! I gotta send mine in SOON as well Regards, Dawnmarie