by Sunsilver on 29 May 2022 - 01:05
Would like to discuss. PM me if you don't want to do that here.
When I was going to buy Star, I contacted Fred to get his opinion, as there were a few things I was concerned about.
When she x-rayed as dysplastic in one hip at 2 years, with 5 generations clear (nothing worse than a 'fair') in her pedigree, he told me if the dogs had been Penn hipped instead of x-rayed by OFA or SV, I might have been warned she was at risk.
Not really helpful, when most of those dogs were born long before Penn hip was in existence. :(
by Hundmutter on 29 May 2022 - 03:05
Never heard that quote. I suppose Malcolm Willis might have said it, perhaps in describing a particular dog (i.e. that the pup in q. had the same dog as a grandsire and a great grandsire, destributed on both sides of its family). Certainly haven't heard it bandied around as any sort of guidance, [a lot of his quotes are. ;-) ;-) ;-) ] and have never seen it in anything I've read by him, I don't think anyway.
Sunny, that's not such close linebreeding, if its an accurate quote. Lots of Showdogs about with that level of LINE breeding; would not be interpreted as 'Inbred' here. (Well, maybe in these post Jemima Harridan days ...). [I can think of people to whom that degree of relationship might be applied !]
Rik - we used to have our very own "Dog World", it just wasn't the same as the American magazine - of which we still don't really have an equivalent *. Ours was a long-established national weekly newspaper, much like its rival "Our Dogs", but it closed down a few years ago, leaving us with only one general all-breeds record of KC reports, Show Results, breeder profiles, general dog-related news, etc. Pretty sure Fred Lanting has written for both papers, on occasion.
* We (UK) certainly have our share of nationally published (all) Dog Magazines, but they come and go. The KC produces a regular one (it stopped for a few years but has started to publish the Kennel Gazette again comparitively recently) but that's expensive if you are not a KC Member, and not always the most interesting and readable publication. OTOH quite a few individual breeds publish - sometimes glossy, sometimes monthly - mags, not least of which is the GSD National. In which articles & letters from Fred quite frequently appear. Occasionally alongside mine.
Can you educate me please, Rik, as to what branch of scientist Fred is ? I don't recall any reference to that, and could not find, on a quick look @ Wiki etc, prior to my last post, any reference to him as anything other than as dog breeder / handler / Judge / expert / writer ? ( but presumably he has worked elsewhere in some capacity at some time).
PS: Sorry Fred if you read this (now, or at any time), but I don't know what your qualifications / history actually are, outside of dogs; never seen anything about you as a scientist anywhere. Not trying to be critical, just asking, to make the comparison with Malcolm Willis ! Feel free to castigate me, either here or by e mail, if that info is widely available & I should have known !
by Sunsilver on 29 May 2022 - 03:05
Without digging out my (autographed) copy of the book, I remember Fred said he had observed and (I think) participated in many orthopedic hip surgeries, as well as other types of orthopedic surgeries. I believe he got qualifications as a veterinary assistant in order to do this. He is one of only 2 judges ever qualified to judge both for the SV and AKC. He has also written a book about the German shepherd: https://www.amazon.com/German-Shepherd-Revised-Second-Softcover/dp/0866670734/ref=sr_1_4?qid=1653809618&refinements=p_27%3AFred+Lanting&s=books&sr=1-4
by Sunsilver on 29 May 2022 - 03:05
Here's what Fred had to say when I e-mailed him about Star's hips:
She x-rayed as mildy dysplastic in one hip (subluxation,which means the hip was too loose in the socket). She lived to age 14.5, and never showed any lameness in that hip.
Jane, I hope you will go to my articles on the siriusdog.com website and study those re PennHIP. You have fallen for a couple of errors that are commonly obstacles to progress in breeding programs. Better yet, order the orthopedics book.
First, to rely on the highly unreliable OFA readings and SV "a"-stamps, is a bad idea. There are many, may dogs with unacceptable-for-breeding laxity in the hips, who (because of the positioning used by OFA, SV, etc.) LOOK normal, but are not... the only way you can see the incipient, hidden laxity is with the distraction view, such as PennHIP has perfected.
When you say her ancestors all had "good" hips, I'd bet that they were not all really that good, but that several of them sneaked by, in this v-d position which artificially tightens up the ligaments around the hip socket and femoral head. The old systems were so inadequate that the PennHIP system was developed to correct their failings. All you know about the ancestors is that at the age they were X-rayed (12 mo. for the German, 24 mo.+ for the others) is that they weren't absolutely horrible. But you DON'T know HOW good (or that they were not so good). I hope you have the book (see attached). Or will order copies right away.
So, you see, it wasn't a bolt out of the blue. It was just something that was there all along (probably for generations in depth) and you had your dark glasses on, in the dark. Fred
Feel free to fwd those comments.
by Rik on 30 May 2022 - 16:05
We can discuss it if you want to, maybe in a new thread.
Rik's formula is "breed a good male to a good female, and sometimes you might get lucky and get a good offspring".
by Rik on 30 May 2022 - 17:05
talk to me if you don't agree with what I said.
and, yea, you are trying to stir shitz.
by Rik on 30 May 2022 - 22:05
OK, I'm not falling into this trap again. I'm slow, but eventually I learn.
I'm pretty sure that this is/was my GSD if anyone cares to do a deep dive. Wandy vom Hauswalder Bach.
I'm also pretty sure I picked her out in Aachen, from the youth class, in 2008 (with Freds advice), standing in the cold, cold rain for 3 days.
I'm also pretty sure that I took her to lifetime koer, Southeast USA Siegerin in 2011, and the "Fred" was my handler. You know, if you do dogs, the "guy" you pay to present your dog.
so, anyone interested in this thread, do a deep dive on my last GSD, Wandy vom Hauswalder Bach. She's here and also all my nonsense over the years. and I post my GSD, warts and all.
and I guess someone who can't show a GSD is about to cry to the mods again and I'm going to get my azz reamed out again, because I love the GSD. In all shapes, forms and fashions they come in.
I'll once again beg forgiveness and please don't expel me, cause I'm just here because I love the GSD.
And, it's probably going to be Mr. Darcy, (He, she, it, them, they, I don't know, has been the last 3 of any 4 you can pick.
from my 3825 ups over the years.
All I can say is if you havene't recieved a scolding from the mods here, you really don't love the GSD.
Like I said, I'm kinda slow.
by mrdarcy on 31 May 2022 - 04:05
by Hundmutter on 03 June 2022 - 03:06
Rik: Only if it is 'stirring shit' to ask a question about a claim to someone's scientific background / qualifications. Which neither you, the originator of that claim, nor MrGSD, have answered. Sunsilver provided a part answer.
Dr Willis started writing books in the 1970s. In 1991 - "The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History Of The Breed" - Malcolm B. Willis [BSc, PhD, senior Lecturer in Animal Breeding & Genetics, Newcastle upon Tyne Uni.] wrote
"Diagnosis of hip dysplasia has generally been seen by radiographs which have then been read by trained veterinarians, preferably those skilled in radiographic work. In a book on genetics it is not possible to delve into too much detail on this aspect, which in any event is going to be under the control of veterinarians rather than breeders. Essentially it is up to the vet.practitioner to know what method of X ray is called for and there are numerous publications dealing with this. ((My emphasis.)) The breeder should be able to visit his/her vet and know that professional skills will be applied to positioning the dog in the required way with, at the same time, the necessary items of infomation (Registration/tattoo number/date of X-ray/ indication of R or L) being filmed onto the plate." ((Obvs. these requirements have changed a little since, with microchip numbers and radiographic machinery developments ... ))
"The method of radiographing the dog was described by Lawson 1963 and by Stunkard et al 1969, the later paper emphasising the importance of correct positioning. There is no doubt that in the very early days incorrect positioning must have led to numerous false diagnoses and a considerable number of discards and culls that were not merited. Now there can be no excuse for any veterinarian not knowing how to position a dog correctly but doubtless there are still many who do not. The excellent book by Morgan & Stephens 1985 should equip anyone with a clear knowledge of how to position a dog, and readers are recommended to that publication, not only for a better understanding of radiographic techniques but for a fund of other information on HD."
This was a general paragraph opening a separate Chapter of this book, on matters re HD, some 34 pages long & almost a mini-book in itself. I believe Willis was also instrumental in the setting up, & certainly the continued running, of what eventually became the UK's BVA/KC Scheme for radiographic examination, 'scoring' & recording hips status (all breeds, but originally & with emphasis on our GSDs). That Scheme came into existence in its current form from 1990, but was trialled from '78 onwards.
Malcolm recognises Fred's (1990) book as 'useful', in his opinion, in the Bibliography. I can't find any reference to Fred Lanting within that HD Chapter. Even in the paragraphs relating to the US / OFA scheme.
A good deal of the research work on HD was undertaken in Sweden. I don't think it damages the great American Ego to every once in a while acknowledge that non-Americans have played a role in discoveries etc. Most of those who wrote the earlier papers cited here were/are American anyway.
by jillmissal on 11 June 2022 - 21:06
I have seen an OFA fair do Penn hip .27 / .28 which is an awesome score.
This is because Pennhip is based on how the hips look FOR THAT BREED which IMO is a major detriment.