Thoughts on this breeding - Page 3

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by Centurian on 21 June 2018 - 22:06

Susie ... ok for your rebuttal ...
However I am correct. I don't know where , why and how you state differently . But the fact is that you cannot reintroduce certain traits back once lost- they are gone , period.
For example . Will you agree that for a dog to do either great sport or real protection .. you need a number of traits. Let's take one genetical based trait : Stress Level . In order to have progeny with a strong stress level . That is to say that a dog that can handle a great deal of stress , cope and overcome environmental input , you cannot have one parent with a deficient stress level , mate that dog with good stress level and expect the progeny will have adequate stress level to handle the stress needed for protection . Genetics does not work that way. And what I have seen - that if you attempt this then you will lose something else vital to do the work. You cannot expect to breed a hard dog with a soft dog and think you are going to raise the hardness in the offspring.
OK .... so you might come back and say that : we can selectively breed . My comment : is that in order to select for traits ... back to square one- those traits have to be present in the parents in order for them to be selected for. QED [ quod est demonstrato ] And if one does strong selection . When you add there is also frequently something lost. You might just have the end result something that you didn't quite plan for. I know , there is a rebuttal -- So : the SL they are magnificent in beauty , structure and movement. I have had them for more than 30 years , followed all the great GS breeding in Germany . Had about progeny from Germany's VA1 Siegers . The more intensified the traits the more was lost. Now the protection is in all in practical purposes , non-existent in them. Ditto for the working lines .. I have had working line too from Germany's top , Korbelbach and Kathargo Kennels. Met the breeders from Karthago . But in general the WL sacrifice structure for the innate traits for protection work. What I write is absolutely true.. for some structure deficiencies .. some of them you cannot correct. Height ok , over generations , angulations ok you can influence .. but not all structure traits faults are fixable.
Susie .. you are very very well GS educated - I think more of you .. I am a bit surprised that you don't understand this ... And if I want to get into this matter a little more .. just talk to the old timers in Europe , several countries . They see and talk about , how the new generation breeders are falling short- they lack vision and don;t know how to plan to reach a goal. . The new generation breeders , they want the quick fix, to have instant results . Nor do they know or will plan like the old timers once have. No sense debating this , I get this right from the horses mouth from the old timers - And if you debate this Susie , just point out to me today who would compare to Herman and Walter Martin ... [ whether you agree with the introduction of the black/red GS or not ] - they were aces and quite astute breeders , none the less.

by Gustav on 22 June 2018 - 14:06


by Nans gsd on 22 June 2018 - 17:06

Centurian this is very well written and so so true. Thank you for putting it into laymens terms. And might I add that you can take the best of the best and still not come up with something you can use and work and keep to better your line of dogs. Just does not always work like you plan. Well written. Nan

by jcturf311 on 22 June 2018 - 19:06

thanks for the input.


by susie on 22 June 2018 - 19:06

Cent, you either do not care to read my posts or you simply don't understand my not that good English - I really don't know?
It's obvious a breeder has to know about the breed - that's why I told the OP to raise, train, compete his dogs = learn...

It's obvious the better and the more similar the parents the better and the more similar the offspring - but I already mentioned it.

It's obvious that a litter out of totally different parents ( conformation and/or temperament ) will result in a lot of different dogs - I pointed that out, too.

Reread my posts, they are not that longwinded...

I just can't stand your "you can't breed back" statement, because it's wrong.

As long as the traits you are looking for do exist in a breed it's possible - simple genetics -
50% sire/50% dam -
and the breeder has to be knowledgeable enough to select the next generation according to his/her goals (in the best case according to the SV standard, but that's just my opinion ).

In case you still claim it's not possible to breed back single traits this would mean you believe these traits are lost forever, worldwide, in wl, in sl, in dogs like Joanro and Duke often enough mentioned you like their dogs-a lie?

Do you really think so? In this case you should change the breed.

Off topic, but you seem to like fancy names - I grew up with Rummel, was active under the Martin brothers, Messler, Henke and so on, there were several VA dogs in the club I trained, maybe I even show trained some sires of your puppies..don't thank me, it's for free.

Only a footnote: in case you are looking for a good looking dog, able to work: don't buy kennel names or results, but good dogs/puppies out of good parents instead.

There are a lot of very knowledgeable breeders out there-worldwide-just stay away from the flavor of the day -
a VA1 dog is the best looking dog during one day for one judge, but for sure not the best working dog, an IPO Bundessieger performed best /got the most points at one day, but for sure is not the best looking dog - for sure special for handler and owner, not necessarily special for the breed as a whole.

But who cares? What do I know? You are the expert.

by Centurian on 22 June 2018 - 22:06

In case you still claim it's not possible to breed back single traits this would mean you believe these traits are lost forever, worldwide, in wl, in sl, in dogs like Joanro and Duke mentioned often enough you like their dogs-a lie?

I said exactly what I want to say .I'll write it again : there are some**  traits, once they have been lost , one cannot breed them back into the lines. They are just plum bred out .. period . I don't care what you say , what you believe .. the truth remains the truth and disbelief doesn't change the truth.

Susie .... you are incorrigible . That is exactly right , you are ... I referred to working traits... gave as an example stress level . You should know better .. obviously .. you didn't learn what is important . I would be embarrassed to have worked under those you have mentioned and not even be able to know / comprehend what I have written . BTW just because you trained does not spill over that you know how to breed ! As a matter of fact the statement that you made about genetics being 50 / 50 . That right there ... tells me that you lack full comprehension . For those of you following... [ BTW I understand genetics as well as anyone could on this PDB ] this is not how biological systems work . Yes , on paper the graph of possible outcomes Dr , rr, Dr , rD DD  D= dominant gene and r = recessive gene , the combinations are calculated . BUT ... the TRUTH is that somehow how in Nature , Nature takes a different gist for some ** traits  . To back this up ... let me say that many many people who understand breeding , and I believe this to be true too , will tell you the most important factor in the breeding is the dam* .... The people who know what they are doing will tell you to look for the best dam that you can . Teleologically , [ that to big a word for you Susie ?] , I'll abbreviate , logically ,  if the sire and dam both contributed 50 /50 equally then what difference would it make sire vs dam to seek out mor, to pay attention to getting the best of ? ..If the sire and dam would be of equal importance -truly 50/50 , there would be no emphasis on the female in the breeding program ! ...

Susie you wrote :
------In case you still claim it's not possible to breed back single traits this would mean you believe these traits are lost forever, worldwide, in wl, in sl, in dogs like Joanro and Duke mentioned often enough you like their dogs-a lie ?

Do you really think so? In this case you should change the breed.-----

So what you just implied is that they don't have good dogs - they are not worth having ... Really ?? ... They have GS that for me I could do a lot with. Many , of the dogs they presented hacve  a great deal to offer , in the right hands , fopr the right purpose and the right training . . But not all dogs are for all purposes and people. And the word 'good ' is subjective not objective. again , as far as I am concerned , what I could do with thier dogs , I know who should best own them and Imknow wjho woulnd not be candidates for thier dogs. THAT ndoes not mkae them unsound wacked out GS that no one should own and dislike. Personally , I think you owe them an apology !! A big sincere apology ! 


     In reference to Duke and Jo ...I never ever ever mentioned that I did not approve of their dogs or that I disliked their dogs. BTW I try not to judge dogs or people , do I critique a performance or point out behaviors and attributes , yes ! But that  has nothinh to do with what I like or want or not like or dont want !  I don't judge - it is not for me to say what some one should have or like , whatnthenpuprooe of their dog should be for them  .Same when someone brings a dog to me - I evaluate , I critique , temperament test, evaluate structure - that is different than passing a judgement. You ought to know the difference.

 Most often  I talk in generalities about behavior and behavioral traits. Believe me , I have trained many dogs as such they have . I acutally like ALL bents of dogs , and many different breed dogs. Have owned Malinois too . Because I take a behavioral approach and prefer to get into the dog's head and adapt training to that dog .. fcommincate and train certain ways with certain philosophies for some reason you think I only approve of , or like , mamsy pamsy GSs . That is just not not true . I have owned very aggressiv ** , hard** GSs too . I have trained enough tough canines where they got a very nice helicopter ride by me when I needed to do that . I don't lean tom one knd or bent GS . I love SL and WL alike .  - quite often my posts were about GS in general .In ther past , I also directed many comments about my experiences with some police K9s that I encountered where police thought they had great dogs but sorely were ignorant in regards to what they had. !That does not imply that I pfrefer this or that either . That is just plumb not right to put words in my mouth about anyone's dogs or tell me what dog I like or don't like. 

VA GSs .. again what you write is not entirely true either. Aside from politics , good judges from years back knew exactly what they were looking at . You are in Germany .. you dam well know by the time the Sieger show came around , with all the weekly regional shows everybody knew this dog and that dog and just about knew who would be VA-1 . Susie , please , don't give me that BS. They also knew what the judges preferences were too . BTW , the whole system about 1 point here and 1 point there is so stupid , it is not even funny . The most points don't make for the best GS ! Such a bunch of hogwash and foolishness ,
Again , what you say is not entirely true.. good kennels , yes the dog is important - that I grant you . BUT .. the great breeders as a pattern tend to look for the best dogs or have the best dogs recruited in their breeding - why because they are the ones with a breeding plan and they truly know how to get to develop their program for results. BTW there are some very dog breeders around the world , yes . I now a number from many different countries, But there are also a good number of people that want to breed , do breed , that don't know shi** from shinola. Their interest is the money ... or they just don't understand what they should.

Susie , talking to people like you is someone waisting their breathe. You read what you want to read and think what you want to think - you don't know how to listen* .. Good judges quite often are on the same wavelength Although , I will state that current day , many SL Judges are losing their eye in evaluating the GS . I had given to you acknowledgement and recognition in posts. But , now , I do realize yes , Susie , you still have a long long long way to grow and learn before you are an expert , truly . That is not a judgement, for you proved that yourselfto every one by your arguing about facts , not opinions on many occasions.  Having a discussion with you is like spitting into the wind.   

by Rik on 22 June 2018 - 22:06

mistake, meant to say LOL

by astrovan2487 on 23 June 2018 - 00:06

another thing to think about , the cute puppy with the police officer looks to be 4-5 months old? I have never heard of a police dept purchasing dogs that young. I would bet that that dog is the officer's personal pet and not a police K9 prospect. They don't want to waste money raising a puppy for a year or two then possibly finding out it might not have the drives to do the job. Just pointing that out in case you thought it was evidence of producing police dogs.


by susie on 24 June 2018 - 18:06

Cent, I guess both Joanro and Duke are intelligent enough to understand what I tried to point out.. 😎

Have a nice day

by Centurian on 25 June 2018 - 19:06

Susie ...
You pointed nothing out , except at [ many ] times you you nothing of what you talk about. What you have done is made two untrue comments . The first as related to the breeding of behavioral traits. you have given no reasoning or examples of what you stipulated . I gave at least some reasoning and examples.

Secondly , you have accused me of having a viewpoint and attitude about two people's dogs - words that I have never written or spoken . Just show me where and when I have stated that I do not like their dogs .. You made that a personal issue because you have the inability to address or debate logistically and factually the issues at hand. You have done this on many occasion with many people on the PDB .

I have written , several times , that we had trained temperament deficient dogs in Sch . Even at that , I never stated that I did not care for or like those temperament deficient dogs dogs ! As a mater of fact we made them and ourselves better through training those dogs . That is the ATTITUDE that I and the people I train with have. Dogs other people would have thought were good for nothing we helped become something ! And their owners loved t heir dogs and were very happy with their increase in character ! Having done that - you accuse me of not liking GSs , owned by this person or that person . You have a hell of a of of nerve.

You think , that you know it all . You have proved that you don't know it all , by your own posts. Not only that - but on a topic , that any half way experienced person in the GS would know .. never mind an expert ! I had nothing to do with your dim witted commentary . I tell you this .. I have seen many people having trained in Germany that are the world's greatest , but I have seen also people in Germany training that are some of the world's absolute worst - simply because they thought they knew it all ... like yourself. . For the record I have seen the same in USA and other countries too- I am not partisan ! BTW Susie , I have spent the other professional aspects of my life , a great portion of my life , dedicated to understanding genetics. And you come along and think you are going to tell me .. I mean tell* me , about genetics .. Good Lord ... I don't care if you choose to think differently , what is that to me.. But to make false statements , and try to convince other people that they are true , without any reasoning , proof , examples , while you are condescending and accusing to somebody of something that you yourself don't even know : that is way out of line. But that is what people like you do to other people , when they have nothing constructive to contribute .

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