Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 20

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by ValK on 21 September 2018 - 18:09

Joan, you're correct, good observation.

by joanro on 21 September 2018 - 18:09

Duke, you are correct n my opinion...dogs need a " trigger" to bite.
In this video of the Caucasian, the trigger to attack the man was when the dog was standing over the chunk of meat on the floor, guarding it, the man tugged on the dog's ear several times until the dog turned from the meat and attacked the man.
It is a bull shit set up for the bennefit of novices to " see" a so called vicious dog in "action" !!!


Prager

by Prager on 21 September 2018 - 19:09

Apple I agree almost 100% with your last post. ( Rare thing:) ) Except that socially aggressive dogs are not desired. I agree with Duke on that one.they are desired but not bred by sport or pet breeders and that is IMO disastrous problem for the degradation of breed which should be naturally protective. 

I have also written this about the video which I posted before, where the GS dog on that video is totally misdiagnosed. This GSD same as Mali in OP is socially aggressive. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZQd0mWZe3g

GSDs are naturally protective. What we have here is a dog who is overly protective because his owner is not telling him what to do or not to do. The owner is not/did not set boundaries. He is not a leader. Thus the dog is stressed because the owner inadvertently put his dog into decision-making position - leadership position and dog is not ready nor trained for it. GSD is a command dog and he needs to be told what to do or not to do. This, however, is not the case here. When approaching a stranger his owner is terrified that the dog will bite someone. Dog senses that feer and reads it as a fear of the approaching person and becomes protective of his handler. The handler does nothing effective about it so the dog by default believes that that is what he suppose to do and it works because when he gets aggressive the "intruder" leaves or his handler takes him away and the stress of being a leader and protecting his handler goes away. Thus the dog is this way "trained" to be more and more aggressive on people who are farther and further away from him. It is all miscommunication which spiraled out of hand. Also as centurian said  to transfer of the dog, which is what we see here, is not equal to the rehabilitation of the dog. The problem is not the dog, the problem is the owner and the relationship between the dog and the handler.


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 21 September 2018 - 20:09

Joanro-
Your right about these sensationalism videos with aggressive dogs or made-to-be aggressives. I don’t watch them anymore. I havn’t watched this one with the Vet. So while I don’t know specifically about this one, generally, most are pure BS and young pathetic guys usually are the audience they are made for and get off on them.
And, I want to take this opportunity to say to breeders that they really need to think twice, and look deep into the eyes of the little pup they have just breed, before sending him to some countries that have no modern-day dog culture, no basic respect for animals or even religious hatred towards dogs, and/or unbearable temperatures and conditions for any dog or human. Even in the name of LE, just don’t do it. I have seen awful things in my travels to certain countries.

I think I originally brought up the issue about the wrap-around forlegs in the original video. And while I mostly agree that it is to hold the prey in place...when biting or mating. I also see the wrap-around-hold used in fearful and/or fearful aggressive dogs that turn and try to climb up a leg or arm of the handler, without biting. So body language can be used in different ways by a dog. It’s all in the context.

Unless you know a pup from birth, it might not be easy to always diagnose the reason for ‘social aggresson’. I have seen pups at 8 weeks go after strangers that get too close, with aggressive barking and bluster showmanship. And with others, it’s very often trained or ingrained by unknowing trainers/owners in up over their heads, over time.
Or sometimes a lack of socialization...where by the later IMO is often overrated to a big extent. Lack of a lot of socialization with other people (I don’t mean not riding in cars etc...daily life activities, which is important) but as in allowing petting by everyone and “puppy classes” is not the reason most of the time, and can often make a pup worse, especially a sensitive gsd. And, believe it or not, many gsds will even grow out of it, alone, in time, once mature, if not stressed too much about it and have good strong guidance from handler/owner.
Bottom line, I guess, is that we have to be careful and stop overusing these catch all tag lines lines like “weak nerves” or “ fear aggression” or “washed out” because every dog is different and can’t be diagnosed by a short video.
If you have a so-called weak nerved dog, and he is yours....you can still work with him, teach him...make a great dog out of him despite his short comings... IF YOU KNOW HOW TO! That is what makes an ok trainer a great trainer.
Most people don’t have the Know-how and will blame the dog’s nerves.


 

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 21 September 2018 - 20:09

Prager-
Just read your post after I posted.
Yes, spot on....
The handler/owner’s fears traveling down the leash, that the dog will bite and fear of the loud bark, are a huge problem that perpetuate the unwarranted aggression against strangers. It is a vicious circle.
The handlers have to get a handle on it and nip it in the bud.
When walking down a sidewalk, and the dog reacts like in the last video Prager posted of the young trainer, do whatever you as the owner/handler need to do to stop it. And I don’t mean give him treats!
I mean like knee him in the chest and make him get behind you (force appropriate..don’t overdo it...but don’t under do it either).
You are the boss, not him. You need to be in front, not him. Go everyday and put yourself and the dog in this situation on purpose....practice all the time. And do it every single day and guaranteed the dog will thank you for not having to be so vigilant all the time, cause he will feel you are no longer afraid and he can relax too.

PS: I guess I have to add, as a disclaimer, that a novice, working someone else’s dog or a dog from the pound that you haven’t bonded with yet, might not want to try this right away. But if its your dog, and your KNOW your dog, and you know dog psychology...go for it.
Before doing it, Picture in your minds eye, where you want the dog, and what movement you are going to do to get him there...like a mind-movie in a spit second, and then act. Use the old athlete trick-picture the end result, the winning. The dog will pick it up and it will happened that way. It works.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 22 September 2018 - 00:09

To continue-

Prager says above paraphrased: “dog is over protective/stressed because owner is not a leader”

To add to my above post about that...
Someone can be a leader at home, and the dog is great there. But, sometimes that same person isn’t a leader when out in public, or around other people. Some people have natural anxieties in public. Or, they are afraid to control the dog with the right amount of leadership when outside, afraid of what other people might think. Dogs will always pick up on this. The dog might then feel he has to watch out for everything, because of the lack of leadership...often not even perceived by the owner. The owner will swear up and down that he is a leader.
But we can never fool a GSD, the dog is picking up the low or high level anxiety from the owner when outside. Or sometimes even at home, when other people come to the house and the owner’s anxiety is palpable to the dog  - although often not noticable to other people. Dogs are masters of body language/breathing/emotions and can see through any facades we built up.


Prager

by Prager on 22 September 2018 - 15:09

I have had a case where 3 dogs started to fight as soon as the owner got on the phone. This is actually quite common. The slightest change in the demeanor of their owner upsets the hierarchy applecart. IMO it is their way dogs are keeping us honest with ourselves and in the relationship, we have with them.

"All knowledge, the totality of all questions and all answers is contained in the dog." - Franz Kafka

by david61 on 24 September 2018 - 09:09

Jeez, you call that a fear bitter?!

by apple on 24 September 2018 - 15:09

JJ,
Yes, you can train a dog with nerve issues, but you are just essentially masking the nerve issues and under pressure the dog will either shut down or go into avoidance.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 24 September 2018 - 16:09

Apple-
That is true that the dogs genetic make-up will always come through at times of whatever is high stress for that particular dog. And needs to be acknowleged.

But, on the other hand, this is also all about moveable parts.
The diagnosis of “bad nerves” is always on a sliding scale. Some are worse than others, and can have fear of different triggers. Like with everything, it always depends on what you are using the dog for.

A dog with questionable nerves will not do well as an LE dog and will be a liability, or will perhaps not work out as high level sports dog. Although, some high level sports dogs might not be good candidates to walk on a crowded street downtown, or be afraid of the vacuum cleaner at home. Sliding scale.

Many dogs with some nerve issues, can be turned into a very nice companion dog or family dog, maybe even low level competion for fun, with the right training and management.


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