Inappropriate Agression , but is this a fear biter? - Page 12

Lol. Jesse, the crowds didn't hold back ...they were loud and clear with enthusiasm :-)

Jessejones

what Centurian tries to explain is - if aggression is deeply rooted in foundation (genetics) of specific dog, there aren't
exist any kind of rehabilitation for that. only thing can be done is to subjugate but in some cases even this won't work.
eventually at some point, under some circumstances, the nature will take over and overwhelms everything, dog has
learned and experienced.
i won't discuss video as an earlier i stated - it doesn't gave enough info on dog, problems with dog and purpose of showed
exercise. could be it all was intentionally staged, who knows?
after all the guy in video did this "bad dogs rehabilitation" his livelihood, so should be very obvious he is salesman and sales
tactic is cornerstone of his enterprise, so i guess my doubt could be justified.

Just to be clear ... I did not say some dogs can't be worked with . I have worked with people with aggressive dogs. This is why in earlier posts I wrote only what I did and exactly what I did , no more or less. . I knew there would be  rebutle , people would disagree, and I didnt wish to debate ..  But I think EB was right about how many secs he/she could see what was going on. 
I am saying that this dog is very dangerous and I already discussed the aggression. The man basically stood still in a very non confrontational stance without challenging the dog , threatening or countering  the dog. . This was not even a frontal stance to the dog. This dog would have most likely killed the man if he had no muzzle. This dog was not 'defensed' and yet he was more than combative. I don't expect people without in depth canine education and experience to see what I see.

I stated my case and without spieling off qualifications , believe me or not. Valk says the video does not give enough information, I respect him for stating that . For me to look at this video... I see all the information that is needed for me to access this dog . Some of my observation I did not write about. In my training education my mentor told us this : " you have 10 seconds to temperament test a dog and if you don't learn what you should learn , you WILL get bit and get bitten quite badly. ". For the record ... this is what we did , our forte , to master evaluating canine temperament and accessing it in canines . One other fact to consider when comparing horses and canines , with no offense to nayone:  Let's not forget a horse is a prey animal whereas a dog is a predatory animal. So , there lies a little difference interacting with a prey animal as opposed to a predatory animal .

Thanks Valk

I do understand what Centurian means and I agree with much of it.

I also agree that most every dog will revert back to genetic hard-wired behavior when in stress (how much he will revert back, will also depend on the amount of stress - stress defined as that experienced by the dog)
No disagreement there.

And you are right, the vid is not a 100% indicator of the situation with that particular dog.

And, yes, the motivation for videos must always be suspect. I think I wrote something similar a few posts back, pg 9 or so, about videoing overly aggressive dogs as an advertisement for business.
 

But, my point is simply that this particular trainers tactics are bonafide and true. In my opinion he knows what he is doing... unlike many other vids I have seen dealing with aggressives. Like vid. #2 IMO.  

For many dogs his technique will work ...for many inapporpriatly aggressive dogs where the inappropriateness is learned (again from what I can see, as I don’t speak French) If dog is genetically faulty...then I hope he can diagnose that too. But genetics are imo not that straighforward to always diagnose, and it may take some time to do, even though Centurian can tell in 15 seconds. Which I am not doubting at all, he knows his stuff... but it is, especially from a video, subjective, imo.

We all know we need lots of tricks in our bag. It looks like he has helped a lot of dogs over the years, and perhaps for some, this was the last chance they had. (I’m not a bleeding heart, but do want to give each living being a chance...within reason, of course)

Having said that...look at my million dollar questions at the end of the last post. There are always caveats for every situation.
Which is why I try hard to word my post very carefully.
(And why they are often too long, LOL...my apologies for that!)

 

Yes, prey and predator....usually.

However, there are horses who act like predators in their determination to savage and destroy humans. Those cases are more dangerous than a vicious dog and can be more aggressive than a dog...like my paint. No one could handle him nor pet him. He would attack with mouth and hoofs.
I have exercised a race horse that required three people to get the rider on his back... one on either side of his head holding lines to prevent him reaching around and grabbing me (the rider)with a crushing bite , a third person to give a leg up. These horses are not behaving as 'prey' , they are aggressive and want to cause severe damage.

While galloping the Brahma around the arena during performances, with the paint free, galloping  along side, sometimes he would grab hold of my leg or my stirrup and I was left to make him let go before damage, maintaining a smiling countenance.....not behaving as a typical prey animal there.

 

Jesse, I agree, the French trainer appears to know what he is doing and is effective in his method.

Joanro-
Story time...

My grandmother was the most amazing woman I’ve ever met and was born 1909 and passed away in 2001.

As a girl from a farming village in southern Germany, she experienced the army horses that were left roaming wild in the aftermath and confusion of WWI 1918-19.

There were millions of horses used in that horrible war and many were so shell-shocked and mentally destroyed by battle that they roamed the countryside terrorizing anyone that got in their way.

The farmers thought that they would round up these horses and retrain them to do farm work. So they were herded together and penned using very sturdy log fences.

My great grandfather was the forest master of the area and oversaw the cutting of the trees for the making of the corrals, and my grandmother, a girl of 9-10 always went with him to watch the work and she watched the day the horses were brought in ...and the often futile training of the horses, putting men in constant danger.

She often told me about those days...the crazed whites of the eyeballs of the horses, the flaring nostrils and the foaming muzzles. The high screams and shrieks of the horses in aggressive panic. And the killing instinct of these animals with 2000 pounds up on hind legs, using their hoofs, and teeth, as deadly weapons.

Most could not be rehabbed and had to be put down, which my grandmother also witnessed... in the hundreds. All of this deeply effected her for the rest of her life, but never waivered in her love of horses and all animals. But out of all animals, she always had the most respect for horses and the damage they could inflict.

LOL...I don’t know why I’m writing all this...must be getting old or something.



 

I wanted to add as it might be mildly interesting historically to some that are following this thread:

My grandmothers respect for animals according to hurt they could produce was:

horses number one...highest rung.

then way down...the dogs.

In dogs...first she respected, and would not fool with, the large Spitz.
Which protected many farms back then and could be as mean as all get go.
I remember them as a kid, but they are almost extinct now.
They had no hunting instinct so never wandered, they did eat rats and mice on the farm...but protected the farm better than anything. Everyone respected the intellegent and self-sufficient large spitz.

Add: Then came the dachshund. Which was traditionally in southern Germany the dog that the forest masters and hunters had. He was bred to go after the meanest animal in the forest, the badger. Brave as can be going down the badger hole. No one messed with dachshunds...they were stubborn and ornery, like a badger. The ones you see now are not even shadows of the original dachshunds.

Lastly, the German shepherds. They were always considered nice dogs back then.
Nothing to be afraid of at all. They were always the closest emotionally to humans.

Consider that this was not too long after Stephanitz created the SchH with bite training....to give his dogs a job, since shepherding was already starting to die out at the turn of century...and he was a military man.

He thought the dogs would always have a job doing more protection or military/LE work, than shepherding going forward into the future. Little did they know that WWI and WWII would be right around the corner and he would be right in more accounts than one.

Jessejones

to answer your million dollar question - which dog can be rehabbed, experienced handler can figure out before dog
would reach one year age.
in regard of owner's dealing with aggressive dog, it absolutely depends on owner's abilities and will. from my own
experience - would be most wise to leave dog to be what that dog already are and find best use for his specific traits.

in past such overly aggressive dogs wasn't trained for complex tasks but used as sentry/watchdogs on chains or
enclosed perimeters. few cases i know, even being insulated from public, dogs was shot due to excess of aggression
even toward their handlers.

Thank you, Jesse, for that wonderful account of the past in Germany.

I know from talking to circus people from Germany who lived there during WW2 just how bad it was for civilians....the mother of the Elephant trainer related stories to me, about staving off starvation by consuming their Doberman dogs. Bad times back then....different now.

BTW, can you describe the Spitz dogs, are they still existing ?