Hypothetical Question...... - Page 1

A good friend of mine and I were having a friendly debate the other day and I wondered what everyone else's thought were on this...Person buys a 2 yr old bitch purely based on a picture, pedigree and feedback of the breeder; buyer acquires the bitch and finds she is shy or skiddish around people-not agressive, just shy; the new owner has the bitch for 2 yrs and the dog has only adjusted to the new owners and remains shy/skidish of other people. Owner decides they want to breed her to a male that comes from equivalant pedigree quality, has proven working ability and perfect temperment/nerves. Owner thinks that his bitch's shyness was a result to her not being properly socialized at a young age and used to living as a kennel dog not due to genetics so the owner feels by breeding her to a correct male the litter will not be affected by the bitches "shyness". My friend seems to think if she had the male in this situation she'd breed to this bitch in hopes of improving the temperment on the bitches side. I tend to disagree with her and stated I would be reluctant to take that chance in breeding to this bitch. We debated this for over an hour until I finally said we agree to disagree, you breed great danes and I am not a breeder or experienced enough with GSD's to say I am absolutely right and you are absolutely wrong. But I couldn't help but continue this debate in my own head for a couple days and thought it'd be a good conversation piece for some of you to extend your thoughts on it.

I would not, this bitch isn't right, to me. Her shyness isn't because of the kennel, in two years a dog with good nerves would not be shy anymore. Yeah the puppy stuff is important, but a good dog can overcome any of that later. But it is hard to get the full picture over the internet. Anyway, regardless of "how" or "why" she's skittish and shy, I still wouldn't breed her. the Mother teaches the puppy a lot, how they deal with other dogs and people is one of them, pick up a copy of von Stephanitz's book and see what he thinks of this. I would not breed the dog, i'm sure those aren't the only things wrong with it, but just on the basis of the effect the bitch will have on the new pups because of her shyness would be reason enough to say NO for me.

I would not breed her. After two years of "working through it" she should not exhibit those traits, or at most very seldom. It does sound genetic. I have seen both way in dogs, some got over it and some didn't. The ones that got over it I would have no problem seeing bred, the ones that didn't should not be bred. JMO. Tina

I'm with ya darlin'... don't breed this bitch. There is no way to know for sure if the bitch's shyness is genetic or the result of poor socialization. The fact that after 2 years she hasn't been able to get over it makes me believe it's genetic. Even top bloodlines can produce a few spooks. Pedigree is no guarantee of quality for any individual dog. I certainly would not breed my male to her. Her nervy behavior is likely to have a negative impact on the puppies, and then my stud gets associated with producing nerve bag puppies. Not worth the risk! Besides, think about those poor puppies, growing up with such a dam. Bad deal all around.

My husband and I once stopped to look at a litter of German Shepherd pups that were advertised for sale. They were cute little things, and most of them were friendly and came running over to check us out. Then, we went outside to meet Mama. She barked at us, and hid behind her owner's legs. As soon as was decently possible, we got back in the car and drove away. I don't care if spooky temperments are 100% inheritable or just (possibly) a learned behaviour from the dam to the pups. The point is: WHO WANTS TO TAKE THE CHANCE? It's such an undesireable trait, and can even lead to a dog attacking if it feels cornered. As a matter of fact, I know of a dog in rescue right now because though he's fine with his owners, he just doesn't warm up to other people, and gets aggressive if they come too close.

Thanks guys and gals for all your input. I had my friend read this thread so she could hear from other's. Perhaps people that breed different types of dogs look at things differently than the GSD people??? I look at it this way, my dog although is across the board an all around great guy he's not a magician who's gonna come in and "fix" every possible downside the bitch has that might or might not get passed on to her pups; so I would be uncomfortable in breeding to a bitch that has an "obvious" issue. Also, I thought of the very same thing Sunsilver stated about going to see puppies that were adoreable but the bitch hid behind the owner so they left. I would have done the same thing. I'd imagine it'd be tough selling pups to people that understood what they were buying when they'd see this type of behavior from one of the parents.

No. You do not breed a spooky, fearful bitch,period. If it is 100% genetics then the answer is obvious. If it is 100% duo to lack of socializing the answer is still obvious. The dam will pass on the fear to the pups either way. I have always felt that the dam, not the sire, contribute more to the pups because of her influence on them. Only a proven male that " throws his own" can offset that, but that's still a crap shoot. I must say though that I disagree that poor early enviroment will not effect the pup later in life. If a pup has no exposure to the outside world, no exposure to people, places, smells, and everything else but a small living quarters for the first 3-4 months of it's life it will be adversely affected all of it's life. You can do a lot to improve it's fears, but it will always lack confidence in stressful situations. Those early months are critical for socializing and imprinting. Based on the information provided this is a no brainer. Let your buddy read these responses. It sounds like he is going to defend this to death though, " don't confuse me with the facts" type of thinking.

"My friend seems to think if she had the male in this situation she'd breed to this bitch in hopes of improving the temperment on the bitches side. "

I am no breeder. Nor am I an expert in these matters.  However, it seems that this is a misguided desire to "improve the breed" by offsetting weaknesses of the bitch with strengths of the male.  This is the polar opposite of taking a bitch with minor faults (not weaknesses) and offsetting them with a male who is particularly strong in those same areas.

Why does she want to breed this particular dog so badly?  Is it to keep pups for herself (I would think that she wouldn't want another weak nerved pup any mor than a buyer would.). Is it to begin a breeding program? If so, she will quickly get a reputation of selling "iffy" or downright skittish pups. Or is it for profit? That would only leave making a buck.

And I would have to say, this stud and owner don't seem particularly stellar, either, to breed to a bitch with these issues.

To me, it seems the first step in improving the breed is to take weak dogs out of the gene pool.  These dogs may be offset somewhat by a good stud in the first litter. But, ultimately, it is permeating the gene pool with undesirable traits for the breed.  Just my newbie opinion.

Dawg