help with question for everybody - Page 1

would it be an option for any of you to buy a male whos hips where Noch zugelassen a3 with the rest of pedigree is fine and if the quality is there

Jeck was a noch zuglassen and look at the results...not too shabby. I am sure there are many others like this. Does this male have any progeny yet you can look into??

A dog is 3 things: 1. What he is. Phenotype...noch zugel. 2. What his pedigree says he should be...better than noch zugel. 3. What he produces...??? I've seen excellent hips produce crap. I had a Fanto Hirschel son that produced about 20% displasia :-((.

"tcall", people will tell you "my uncle smoked 3 packs a day and died at 105" Yes, that may be true. But statistics still count and the probablility of getting cancer if you smoke is (much) greater than if you don't. Do you know what I mean?

It is pretty much agreed upon that HD is not exclusively inherited. Some people may disagree with what percentage is correct, but for the most common part it is considered 30% inherited, and 70% acquired. The SV even lists that on their website. Studies have been done in which supplementation of vitamin C and E has had a positive effect on hips. Poor thyroid function (also not exclusively inherited) can be a cause for poor growth, development of joints and connective tissue. Overfeeding, underfeeding, wrong calcium:phosphorus ratio in the food, poor protein quality, etc. Wrong type of exercise, accidents, stress to the body. All that may sway the results one way or another. What you see at one year, or two, or even later is the cummulative result of all that the dog has lived through, plus some genetic baggage on top of that. There are also many cases where hips that the vet who took the x-rays thought would be a1 or a2 then come back with a3. It is very tough to contest that with the SV, nearly impossible. Some dogs are worth re-xraying in the US to get OFA results. Similar occurrances happen with the OFA, but you can send in a new x-ray pretty easily. On the flipside hips that are a1 or excellent at one point in time look terrible just a few years down the road. Then comes the quality of x-ray into play as well. I could send you one that a vet recently thought might not even get a3. The positioning was terrible, these were never sent in. New x-rays at a different vet resulted in a2. This is not an exact science. Fred Lanting has recently released a book on the subject, have not read it yet, but its on the list of things to do. You also must look at the dog as a whole. People tend to pick out a few traits that are favorable or unfavorable and get hung up on that, both in the positive and the negative. If the whole picture looks good, the dog brings enough to the table, then breeding with a3 hips is justified. Extra care should be taken in choosing proper breeding partners. So that pups will not fall into those 30% you do not want. Breeders in Germany use dogs with a3 hips if they think the dog has something to offer. a3 hips are after all fully accepted for breeding. Breeders in the US tend to have a serious problem with a3 hips. If the accepted rating would end at a2, they would avoid a2. All from a false sense of hope that good hips produces good hips. The obsession to breed the perfectly healthy maintenance free dog will never become reality. In the end "the sum of all diseases in a population will remain the same".

Many say that the ZW score is more important than the dogs actual hip rating. If his ZW score is low than I wouldn't have a problem.

I will add my two cents worth, if I may:) I also hold Jeck as an example...and use the ZW for help to evaluate. It is not all genetic as we know. "do not throw the dog out with the bath water":)

In other breeds where more emphasis is placedon breeding only the best to the best hips to the best hips(ie goods to excellents, fairs selsom used), it seems the percentage of normal hips will slowly improve from generation to generation. There are so many other necessary traits that need to be considered when breeding a GSD for working or for the SV show ring that hips take a lower spot on the list of "gotta haves" and NZ and near normals are commonly used. IMO, and this is just based on mny own personal experience with another working breed, you will most likely never reduce the frequence of HD or the severity of HD as long as the use of NZ and near normals is practiced. The AKC line breeders who use only OFA certified dogs get alot less HD in their dogs than do those who use NZ's and less than ideal hips. I do agree that there are other factors that do influence the degree of HD, but it's mostly in the genes. This is a very tough breed to breed the right way, hips are only a part of the picture. Until the use of NZ's and near normals is no longer practiced IMO you will not reduce the percentage of HD in your dogs. Not saying that's a bad thing, it's just the law of nature and you can't beat it - like begets like.